Thursday 5 November: Politicians had no firm grasp of the scientific evidence before imposing lockdown again

Posted on by Geoff Graham

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Today’s letters (visible only to DT subscribers) are here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2020/11/05/letters-politicians-had-no-firm-grasp-scientific-evidence-imposing/

912 thoughts on “Thursday 5 November: Politicians had no firm grasp of the scientific evidence before imposing lockdown again”

    1. No, Angie – it’s another train coming!

      Good morning. Frosty and crisp in yer East Sussex this morn, and the autumn leaves are looking superb.

      2. It’s so dark when I get up that I have to switch on the light to check if my eyes are open…
        :-((

    2. Ditto here where we meet with the borders of Essex, Herts and Beds on our southern shore.

  3. Saw this posted elsewhere

    A truly great speech in Parliament today by Sir Charles Walker delivered so movingly and with more emotion and conviction than any speech I’ve ever heard from a Conservative MP since Churchill.

    Here it is as entered in Hansard but I hope a recording will soon become available for what he says here is what so many of us think and feel and dread.

    Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)

    It is lovely to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.

    Our freedoms are like the air we breathe. They are fundamental to us as a nation and to who we are as its people. Yet once again we stand on the threshold of using the rule of law to undermine the rule of law, the foundations of which have been laid over centuries. We are not asking our constituents to do anything. We have never asked; we have coerced them. We have coerced them through criminal and civil law. Let us not use the word “ask”, because it is not an accurate description of what we have done. We have criminalised freedom of association, the freedom to go about one’s business, the freedom to travel—and the freedom to protest. The freedom to protest is the oxygen of democracy. This hurts my head and it hurts my heart. Dismissing these sincerely held concerns as wanting to let the virus rip is both deeply ungenerous and deeply, deeply unkind, but in responding to that charge, I say that if this Parliament is not the place for disputation, delectable or otherwise, where is this rigour to be found? I want people to live long lives, full lives, happy lives, myself included, but my mortality—our mortality—is ultimately our contract with our maker, whereas our fundamental rights are our contract with Government. I will not be supporting this legislation. I think it is terribly unjust and, like my dear friend, my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady), I think it is, in many parts, cruel.

    I will have no part in criminalising parents for seeing their children and children for seeing their parents—no part. This legislation goes against my every instinct—perhaps an instinct even more fundamental than the love and touch of my family. I am not living in fear of the virus. I will not live in fear of the virus, but I am living in fear of something much darker, hiding in the shadows, and when the sunlight returns, and it will return, I hope that it chases those shadows away, but I cannot be sure that it will. I cannot be sure, and that is at the heart of my anxiety and the anxiety of so many of the people whom I represent in this place.

    1. Ahh. The Truth in Parliament! There must have been some shuffling of feet and staring at the ceiling while that was said!

      2. Morning, Araminta.

        I see the use of ‘sunlight’ by Sir Charles as a metaphor for ‘truth’. When, as Sir Charles states that the sunlight will return I ask myself, where will the peddlers of the darkness hide? As hide they must after inflicting such pain on the nation and its people. Hiding behind their interpretation of ‘the science’ must not be sufficient an excuse for their actions.

          2. PS – Clicking on your new avatar, I see that you returned to these pages in late October. The photos of your new paving stones between your house and your neighbour’s is truly phenomenal. What a transformation, and what a beautiful collection of flowers in pots. Plus your latest culinary efforts. Once this new lockdown is over I must invite myself over for supper! ;-)) Keep well, my friend.

          3. You’ll be very welcome and I have some very nice wines in stock at the moment – not sure how long they’ll last, though.😎

        3. Heyup!
          Good to see you making the occasional comment.
          I presume you’re managing to KBO

    3. Lockdown is not the worst freedom we are losing.
      Where do you see any cartoons of Mohammed?
      Nowhere.
      The sharia censorship is moving with breathtaking speed in France. Just last week, it was cartoons of Mohammed.
      Yesterday, it was Borat sporting a ring saying Allah.
      Last time I looked, this third rate comedian wasn’t Mohammed.

      The point is, that once we accept the principle that we must not do anything that offends Muslims, then we are already Muslim.
      We just don’t know it yet.
      We don’t yet avoid pork or go to the mosque, but remember, we have established the principle that we mustn’t do anything that offends them.
      And pretty soon, it will offend muslims if we eat in front of them during Ramadan, or sell pork or alcohol, or if women dress immodestly, or if Christians proclaim their religion.

      This is not just theorising – this is what I saw years ago from visiting a muslim country. Not being openly muslim was a constant battle waged against keen muslims who were always trying to pressure people into compliance.

      1. ‘Morning, bb2. Well said. Your front door – at the very least – is now in mortal danger, as is mine for agreeing with you…oops.

      2. It ain’t necessarily so…

        Turkey is a muslim country…check.
        The first time I visited Bodrum (in about ’84) you couldn’t get a beer anywhere. The last time I visited Istanbul (about ’97) beer was available everywhere.
        When I go for lunch at a very good Turkish restaurant in St Ives, I have Turkish beer, & very good it is too.

        2. If you bury your head in the sand of a Turkish beach, you can ignore the fact that over the last 20-odd years, the proportion of the Turkish population becoming hard-line muslim – irt birth-rates, women’s dress, alcohol, music, western-stuff – has increased dramatically and to the point where Turkey has flipped from a secular path to a theocratic path, who will likely permanently elect an islamic tyrant unless the West chooses to give him and the Turks another COMPLETE DRUBBING, as we did to the Ottomans between 1914 and 1919.

        3. Sigh…
          It is understood that men drink beer. Especially when there are a lot of lucrative tourists around. Turkish men have to be firm to assert their right to drink beer. It’s a constant struggle against the keen muslims telling them that alcohol is haram.
          Lots of Turkish men are Turkish first and Muslim second – that’s why there is this constant struggle.
          They can’t understand why we in the West meekly fold to islam’s demands.

          Sorry edited. i’m a bit distracted this morning.

          1. They have wine too.
            Going back to the first time I visited Bodrum, it was very quiet with almost no tourists.
            Every time I go to my Turkish barber I always have a couple of glass mugs of their tea – it is soooo delicious. (No milk or sugar)

          2. I went to a Turkish hairdresser in Germany when I first went there a few times. Big salon with a women’s side and a men’s side. A woman cut my hair, which was shoulder length. Then I went there once and it was a young man. He was constantly talking to his friends, and he cut my hair into that short, boy cut favoured by elderly German women. I was almost in tears at having my hair chopped off like that.
            They could see I wasn’t happy, so the Granddad behind the counter handed my my change less ten euros.
            I had my young children with me, so I told him and his pals that he was a thief directly. He said he made a mistake (sure!) and gave me the ten euros.

          3. I found hairdressers in Germany pretty clueless at the best of times. It was with great relief that I discovered an English hairdresser, just 100 yds up the road from my father’s flat in Rheydt. She & I became the best of friends & a visit was a nonstop laugh.

      3. Once you accept any curtailment of the right to speak your mind on anything whatsoever. You are a slave!

      4. 326162+ up ticks,
        Morning BB2,
        I know it is on the parliamentary menu, halal that is, that along with the in-house oath taker manual should have triggered alarms
        nationwide among the ovis.

        1. We are being quietly islamised without most people noticing.
          Products that openly say “pork” are disappearing from the shelves, and small notices are beginning to pop up on food and supplement packets saying “contains no porcine products”. There are increasingly products like “chicken ham” and “chicken salami”. Lidl are one of the worst offenders – the same supermarket that used photos of a Greek church with the cross removed on the packaging of its Greek range.

          1. I was in Lidl yesterday. There were about 5 yards of 4 tier shelving full of pork, ham and bacon products – all labelled as pork, ham and bacon… there was plenty of fresh pork too. Nothing is “disappearing from the shelves”, there is more variety of food than there has ever been.

            Yes, cured poultry products have a market, so shops provide them; that’s what shops are for. They are eaten by many people who have no religious scruples but simply don’t want to eat red meat (and for that you must blame the pseudo medical obsessions of our time, not the religious ones).

          2. I used to go to Lidl & Aldi nearly every week when I lived in Germany & Lidl in Sweden because it was far cheaper than the Swedish supermarkets. But here I have never been in the local Aldi & in Lidl only about twice since they opened a few years ago.

          3. I was in Lidl yesterday. There were about 5 yards of 4 tier shelving full of pork, ham and bacon products – all labelled as pork, ham and bacon… there was plenty of fresh pork too. Nothing is “disappearing from the shelves”, there is more variety of food than there has ever been.

            Yes, cured poultry products have a market, so shops provide them; that’s what shops are for. They are eaten by many people who have no religious scruples but simply don’t want to eat red meat (and for that you must blame the pseudo medical obsessions of our time, not the religious ones).

          4. Jennifer, firstly you set up a straw man argument to bash down.
            I did not say pork products have disappeared, I said they are disappearing, i.e. the process is beginning.
            Very likely you did see 5 yards of 4 tier shelving; this does not contradict what I said.

            The fact remains, that they are beginning to disappear; you just don’t realise the significance of what you are seeing yet.
            Fresh pork is untouched, and the reason for this is probably that muslims tend not to buy fresh meat at supermarkets. In my experience they prefer to shop at halal butchers, and don’t trust that meat labelled “halal” from a western supermarket will actually be so.
            But cured and cooked meats are slowly beginning to lose the “pork” headline labelling. You may assume that ham and bacon are pork products, but on the Continent, this is not always the case. In the German speaking world, you can buy chicken “ham” and turkey “bacon” for example.
            So supermarkets, especially Lidl are offering products that avoid the inflammatory “Pork” or “pig” words. They’re tending to sell Melton Mowbray pies, cocktail pies, ham, bacon, mortadella, salami, Lyoner, sausage…in fact anything that isn’t explicitly shouting the “pork” word at customers.
            Creeping in under the vegan banner are also less nutritious pork free gelatine products, and food supplements and medication that advertises itself as pork free.

            You appear to believe that these changes are due to the healthy eating lobby. I’m afraid you don’t seem to realise the extent to which muslims are genuinely convinced that their avoidance of pork is for medical reasons, and they will genuinely join any crusade to encourage vegan gelatine products, or avoid “unhealthy” meats.

            Food is an extremely political subject, and it is at the forefront of islamisation of the west. Most westerners don’t attach particular importance to small changes like the ones I describe, so you tend not to realise the significance of what is happening in front of your eyes.

          5. No, I set up no straw man. Neither did I “bash” anything. My response was polite and measured – unlike either of your hysterical comments.

            Nothing is disappearing from our shelves. There are as many (actually far more) pork products as there have ever been and every one of them is clearly labelled (it has to be, by law).

            You have nothing to tell me about how political food is, I’ve been in the food trade all my life – and I’m quite sure that you have not.

            Your claims are stuff and nonsense. Nothing more.

          6. Your straw man argument was the idea that I said all pork products have disappeared, which I did not.
            You have now set up another one, which is the idea that I said pork products are not labelled with their ingredients. This is not what I said.

            The rest of your post is just empty insults.

          7. The only person setting up a straw man is looking at your screen. The only person writing insults is looking at your screen.

            Your posts are hysterical nonsense.

          8. Go on Jennifer! Don’t stop – I’m sure you can think of plenty more to say. I’m all ears!

          9. What, only a down vote? I’m disappointed!
            Do not deny me more of your erudite arguments, wit and charm.

    5. I didn’t realise we still had MPs who were capable of making such speeches.
      Lucky Broxbourne.

    6. A good MP unlike my spinless version who “saw the medical evidence [sic]” and felt the lockdown was the only choice! I wonder how she’ll spend the thirty pieces of silver?

    7. Really, that is an exceptional speech which makes me both proud to be English (British?) and, yet, despairing of the toadies, opportunists, and feeble-minded who make up so much of those sitting (or not sitting) on the green benches.

    8. 326162+ up ticks,
      B3,
      Tell him on the day of reckoning & it will come,NOT to go to the office.

  4. So the so called leader of the free world the USA is officially now a banana republic under the control of the NWO just as Russia and China and North Korea are under the control of their dictator ruling elites.
    No point in looking down our noses at them any more.
    The West has sold out to totalitarian rule.

    1. 326162+ up ticks,
      Morning B3,
      Many of the electorates thought it a good idea & many still do, party before Country
      voting mode is far easier than having to think things through.
      We have NEVER been on a winner in regards to governance especially since
      major & are NEVER likely to be, in supporting a coalition, ( party’s of the same ilk)

  5. This election proves that the polling industry is a racket. 5 November 2020.

    Pollsters never learn. Neither do we. Brexit, Hillary Clinton in 2016, Theresa May in 2017, and now Joe Biden in 2020. They keep getting it wrong. We berate them for a week or two – we mock their prognostic pretensions. But then another election approaches. The pollsters tell us they have adapted their models. They have “weighted” the electorate differently to better reflect some demographic or economic or educational shift. We have no idea what “weighted” means. We decide they must know what they are talking about. So the cycle of failure continues.

    The 2020 cockup is pretty special, however, even by pollster standards. Surveys told us Trump could lose Texas. He ended up winning the state by 6 percentage points. A Washington Post/ABC survey last week had Joe Biden 17 points ahead in Wisconsin. He ended up only winning by a whisker. An Economist projection model said Biden had a 97 per cent of winning. They said Biden would win North Carolina and Pennsylvania with ease. He did not.

    Morning everyone. It’s quite acceptable for the author to accept his shortcomings but that is no reason to draw the rest of us in. The polling industry has followed the rest of the detritus of Democracy. Like the MSM it has been perverted to serve the Globalist Cause. It is long since it abandoned any attempt at the truth or even handedness. It now exists to form opinion not portray it!

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/04/election-proves-polling-industry-racket/

    1. Even if the polling models were perfect, I’d suspect strongly that people will lie to them.
      After all, after all the opprobrium, who’d admit openly that they support Trump? to be blamed as some kind of racuist, fascist, extreme-right wing nazi?
      Personal example: Had I been allowed to vote, I would have voted Brexit. But I won’t say that in my company, because my boss and his accolytes are rabid antiThatcher remainres, and I need to get on with them to get on. So, I don’t lie, I just say nowt and listen to them whine on…

      1. When was the last time anybody voted for the best or better option rather than for the less catastrophic?

  6. Today I am going to read your mind.

    Pick a number from 1-10.
    Multiply it by 2.
    Add 8
    Divide it by 2.
    Subtract the number you first thought of

    Now, with that number, convert it to a letter using the code A=1, B=2, C=3 etc
    Done?
    Now think of a country beginning with that letter
    OK?
    Take the second letter in the name of that country and think of an animal beginning with that letter.
    Now, finally, think of the colour of that animal

    Drum roll……..A grey elephant in Denmark?

    2. (2X+8) divided by 2 = (X+4) minus X = 4, i.e. D. Not many countries starting with D are there, nor many animals starting with dEnmark?

    3. You’re not supposed to open the Christmas crackers until December 25, Stormy. Anyway, how’s the quiz going?

      1. Well, I sent in my answers on Sunday and straight away realised one was wrong so I asked a friend to send an entry for me with the correction.
        She came third! Team name ‘The Witchey’

        2. REALLY? If all else fails.

          read the instructions? No indication as to the letter the colour should begin with.

  7. Today I am going to read your mind.

    Pick a number from 1-10.
    Multiply it by 2.
    Add 8
    Divide it by 2.
    Subtract the number you first thought of

    Now, with that number, convert it to a letter using the code A=1, B=2, C=3 etc
    Done?
    Now think of a country beginning with that letter
    OK?
    Take the second letter in the name of that country and think of an animal beginning with that letter.
    Now, finally, think of the colour of that animal

    Drum roll……..A grey elephant in Denmark?

  8. ‘Morning, Peeps.

    SIR – Given that the decision to lock down (or not) had to be based on sound facts, I took the time to watch Tuesday’s meeting of the science and technology committee, which questioned the Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance.

    With the exception of the chairman, Greg Clark, and also Graham Stringer, I found that the questioning by MPs was lightweight and betrayed a lack of preparation. Many questions were clearly outside the brief of the Chief Scientific Adviser, a point he made many times. The members seemed to have little grasp of the key issues.

    Jerry Etheridge
    Murcott, Wiltshire

    Seems to me that MPs have very little grasp of anything worthwhile, so no change there.

    1. SIR – Appearing before the committee, Professor Chris Whitty said: “Most of the additional deaths stack up because you don’t deal with Covid.”

      Well, that is only true if the NHS is overwhelmed. But no one was claiming that. Professor Whitty has therefore inverted cause and effect.

      Advertisement

      It is the lockdown itself thathas caused either a lack of timely attention by the NHS or of any attention at all. Graham Stringer challenged Professor Whitty about this, but he did not answer the point.

      The additional (non-Covid) deaths, in the short and long term, are the price the majority pay for Professor Whitty’s lockdown mania.

      Nick Martinek

      Huddersfield, West Yorkshire

      SIR – Charles Moore (Comment, November 3) reminds us that it is not science that drives the ultimate thinking around Covid, but politics.

      We can talk about lockdown, liberty, lives and livelihoods, but it is the fear of liability for the outcome that drives key political decision-making.

      Michael Cooper

      Addington, Kent

      SIR – The Prime Minister seems so concerned about doing nothing wrong that he seems to get nothing right.

      Andrew J Smith

      West Malling, Kent

      SIR – Rather than locking down the entire country, we should lock down Sage and stop its members presenting alarmist projections, many of which have proved false.

      Malcolm Symonds

      Ashtead, Surrey

      SIR – I’m afraid that David Conroy (Letters, November 3) is mistaken in referring to “the combined wisdom of our public-health experts”. If anyone, such as Carl Heneghan, the director of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine, or Sunetra Gupta, Professor of Theoretical Epidemiology at Oxford, dares to dissent from Sage dogma, they are at best ignored, at worst vilified.

      Amanda Rowlands

      Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire

      SIR – Protecting the NHS and saving lives today means running out of funds for the NHS, costing lives tomorrow.

      Christopher Hunt

      Swanley, Kent

      SIR – On a whim, I took a moment to consider the personal liberties I have lost recently. There’s freedom of association, freedom of worship, the right to make medical decisions for myself, the right to family life and the pursuit of happiness and (as I am 85) freedom from discrimination.

      The consciences of the judiciary, so proactive in the run-up to Brexit, appear to be in a form of lockdown on this. I am at a loss to find non-violent support. Perhaps from a libertarian government? Alas, no chance of that.

      Stuart Ashton

      Whitley Bay, Northumberland

      1. Would Mr Whitty have presented the same argument if his salary – and pension accruals – been eroded by 10% per day of lock up?

        If the answer is yes, then fine. Otherwise he is a hypocrite with nothing to lose.

  9. Why are some professional sports allowed to go ahead but not for ordinary people is this an example of the great reset in action?

  10. Police warn public to expect tougher crackdown on Covid lockdown breaches. 5 November 2020.

    Police have warned the public to expect tougher action against Covid rule-breakers after the home secretary told them to “strengthen enforcement” ahead of England’s second lockdown.

    Martin Hewitt, chair of the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC), said those blatantly and deliberately flouting the regulations should expect punishment.

    A police source stressed this did not mean officers would start “policing people’s private lives” but officers would be quicker to fine or close premises in clear and wilful breach of the new regulations.

    Ahh! Obergruppenführer Hewitt making threats. Anyone remember that quaint”, policing by consent”, where did that go I wonder? These people are taking to their new role with some considerable enthusiasm. They will have no problem sending people off in railway waggons when the time comes!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/05/police-warn-public-to-expect-tougher-crackdown-on-covid-lockdown-breaches

  11. Good morning all.

    Cloudy. N’dura on baguette bread for breakfast, with a litre of milk.

      2. ‘Morning, Elsie. As far as I know, it’s from sunny Spain. Similar to chorizo but a million times better.

  14. Just assembled these statistics, to get a feel of the severity, as we’re promised more lockdown at government press briefing to come today.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/436a5ed59cfa45c398b69b231280aa6f39c73f304c08a569bfe8419dd02e420d.jpg

    It shows that, as of today,1/3 of the population has been tested, with an infection rate of 0,4%, and 0,02% of the population has been at some time hospitralised with/of it. 0,005% of the population of Norway has died of/with Corona, being also 1/5 of those who entered hospital with it (revealed today, not necessarily because of it).
    I’d guess, plus or minus a bit, these proportions would apply to the UK, maybe with adjustments based on greater population densities.
    For perspective, the last 5 years influensa deaths averaged at 902 per year, so would be expected to be about 670 by now – not the actual of 282. Also, the road deaths in Norway are down from 255 in 2008 to 106 now. So, how serious is it, really.

  16. Exodus London! Tens of thousands of motorists trying to flee capital last night before lockdown sparked 1,200 MILES of queues across city’s roads and hours of delaysin ‘worst congestion EVER’. 5 November 2020.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5e9dce3d3e8261f5b79f90d84b51ba93e580f1b1539e69137a429379eeb6156d.jpg

    Britain’s roads were gridlocked last night with tens of thousands of drivers trying to flee London ahead of the new lockdown that came into force at midnight.

    According to congestion data published by satnav provider TomTom, there were 1,200 miles of queues across the city’s roads at 6pm with a whopping 2,624 traffic jams recorded.

    Frustrated motorists reported delays of more than 90 minutes in the capital, with traffic on the North Circular alone stretching eight miles.

    Where are they all going one wonders?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8914543/Chock-blockdown-Londons-roads-grind-halt-rush-hour-traffic-34-higher-2019.html

      1. I have seen quite a few drivers wearing masks in their cars – and they are not taxi drivers.

        1. I put on my mask in the car before getting out & entering the supermarket. It’s a matter of convenience. If anybody thinks I’ve driven there wearing the mask, it’s their own mistake.

          3. THey also wipe the handles of their own car doors – in case a Covid germ has landed on it since they left home….

          6. Very considerate of them, Bill. They are just trying to protect any crook attempting to nick their parked motor…be reasonable, man!

          9. Quite a lot of nutters in masks on the very bracing beach yesterday! We tend to giggle and point at them! “They’re more to be pitied than scorned, I can assure you!”

          10. Quite a lot of nutters in masks on the very bracing beach yesterday! We tend to giggle and point at them! “They’re more to be pitied than scorned, I can assure you!”

        2. Saw several yesterday. Nutcases. I can understand deliverymen wearing them to save putting on and off. But ordinary people just driving?

        3. The last time I used taxis – 4 in one day in September, none of the drivers wore a mask & didn’t require me, a front seat passenger because of my arthritis, to do so either.

        4. Me too, A. Inexplicable if they are alone in the car, but if not they may be transporting a vulnerable passenger who has been frightened out of their wits to use public transport.

  17. Wise words written in 1576:

    “It is incredible how as soon as a people becomes subject, it promptly falls into such complete forgetfulness of its freedom that it can hardly be roused to the point of regaining it, obeying so easily and so willingly that one is led to say, on beholding such a situation, that this people has not so much lost its liberty as won its enslavement. “

    1. And with Biden likely to be in the White House – probably through dishonest machinations – the world is on the verge of collapse.

      1. He’s stool Pidgeon for killary and obama, I’ll bet my house that he’ll be wheeled off somewhere out of sight with in 3 months, that’s if he actually gets in

      2. Not collapse, but he will certainly undo all the good that Trump started – reversing his tax cuts, removing the barriers to all the Lefty thugs, adding to the state, making big state even bigger and, no doubt hugely expanding/turning a blind eye to immigration.

        I understand why he doesn’t see these as problems but that’s because he lives in a big house in a nice neighbourhood surrounded by other nice people with equally big houses.

    2. I’ve just heard the woman saying the police acted well, it was the care home that caused it all.

      1. Retired nurse arrested after trying to ‘rescue’ 97-year-old mother from care home

        Campaigners said the incident betrayed the ‘lunacy’ of lockdown rules preventing families from spending time with their loved ones

        By Bill Gardner, 4 November 2020 • 8:10pm

        A retired nurse was arrested by police after attempting to ‘rescue’ her 97-year-old mother from a care home so she could be looked after by her family.

        Ylenia Angeli, 73, wheeled her elderly mother out of her care home on an impulse after hugging her for the first time in nine months.

        However, police pursued Ms Angeli to a local garden centre where officers arrested her on suspicion of assault, before driving her mother back to the facility.

        Distressing footage posted on social media showed Ms Angeli’s mother, Tina Thornborough, a retired seamstress suffering from advanced dementia, looking confused as her daughter was placed in the back of a squad car on Tuesday afternoon.

        Campaigners said the incident betrayed the “lunacy” of lockdown rules preventing families from spending time with their loved ones in their final months and years.

        The police have now confirmed that Ms Angeli would not face charges over the incident.

        The video footage was filmed by Ms Angeli’s daughter, 41-year-old acting tutor Leandra Ashton, who said the family had reached “breaking point” after trying for months to take her grandmother home.

        “We were doing our last window visit before lockdown, and it was very distressing to see my nan because she has dementia and was clearly deteriorating,” she told The Telegraph.

        “My mum was very upset and asked if she could pass a bunch of roses through to my grandmother. When the care assistant opened the door my mum said ‘Let me go to my mother. Please. It’s my own mother, stop getting in the way.’

        “The care worker said no but my mum just snapped and pushed her way into the room. The care worker started accusing my mum of assault, but she was just hugging my grandmother tightly because she hadn’t seen her for months. It was heartbreaking.”

        At that point, mother and daughter made the snap decision to wheel Ms Thornborough out of the facility, Northgate House in the town of Market Weighton, near York.

        “We just decided to take her home. It wasn’t a planned escape,” Ms Ashton said.

        “My mum was a nurse since the age of 21, and has run care homes herself, so she knows how to look after elderly people. We just wheeled my nan out and nobody stopped us. We drove for a bit and parked at the local garden centre to catch our breath, and that’s when the police arrived.

        “We were trying to explain to the police that we just wanted to take my nan home. Give us 24 hours to sort this out, and we will. But social services told the police that my nan had to go back. My mum said the only way you’ll take her back is if you arrest me, so they did.

        “One of the police officers was almost crying. They didn’t find it easy. To be honest I think my nan was enjoying the change of scenery, but eventually the police took her back. Then they de-arrested my mum, so we went home and had a strong cup of tea.”

        More than 400,000 people live in residential care homes in England and Wales, with a significant number judged to be unable to make decisions about their own care.

        Deprivation of liberty (DoL) rules mean these people cannot be taken out of their care homes without permission from a social worker.

        Campaign groups including the Relatives and Residents’ Association, have reported a sharp increase in the number of families battling to bring elderly relatives home during the coronavirus pandemic.

        Ms Ashton said her family had been trying in vain for months to convince the local authority to allow Ms Thornborough to come back home, as well as writing to their local MP, and signing petitions.

        “We tried to go through all the official channels. We were concerned about her deterioration, but we got nowhere,” she said.

        “My mum is a law-abiding citizen but these rules are so ridiculous.

        “The level of fear is meaning that people are losing the ability to think rationally. It’s not just about life, it’s about quality of life and being allowed to spend the time you have left with the people you love.”

        Chris Noble, assistant chief constable at Humberside Police said: “We responded to a report of an assault at the care home, who are legally responsible for the woman’s care and were concerned for her wellbeing.

        “As was our legal duty, we returned the lady to the home and a 73-year-old woman who was initially arrested was de-arrested and allowed to return home with her daughter.

        “These are incredibly difficult circumstances and we sympathise with all families who are in this position.”

        A spokesman for Northgate House declined to comment.

        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/04/retired-nurse-arrested-trying-rescue-97-year-old-mother-care/

        1. The situation is typical of stupidity on every side. The care home should have spoken to the mother and ensured the process was rational and intentional. The police should have used common sense and visited quietly, calmly without a wailing squad car.

          1. The care homes have a vested interest in retaining their residents and will also have substantial support from the Social Services.

    1. That looks smashing, Bill, I’m pleased they bring such comfort and joy to you and your MR.

    2. Good morning Bill.

      The Naming of Cats
      T. S. Eliot – 1888-1965

      The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter,
      It isn’t just one of your holiday games;
      You may think at first I’m as mad as a hatter
      When I tell you, a cat must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES.
      First of all, there’s the name that the family use daily,
      Such as Peter, Augustus, Alonzo, or James,
      Such as Victor or Jonathan, George or Bill Bailey—
      All of them sensible everyday names.
      There are fancier names if you think they sound sweeter,
      Some for the gentlemen, some for the dames:
      Such as Plato, Admetus, Electra, Demeter—
      But all of them sensible everyday names,
      But I tell you, a cat needs a name that’s particular,
      A name that’s peculiar, and more dignified,
      Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
      Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
      Of names of this kind, I can give you a quorum,
      Such as Munkustrap, Quaxo, or Coricopat,
      Such as Bombalurina, or else Jellylorum—
      Names that never belong to more than one cat.
      But above and beyond there’s still one name left over,
      And that is the name that you never will guess;
      The name that no human research can discover—
      But THE CAT HIMSELF KNOWS, and will never confess.
      When you notice a cat in profound meditation,
      The reason, I tell you, is always the same:
      His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation
      Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:
      His ineffable effable
      Effanineffable
      Deep and inscrutable singular name.

      1. Our two have the obligatory three (polite) names:
        Njål – Big/Big Cat – CAAAT!
        Viggo – Little / Little Cat – CAAAT!

        1. CAAAT!

          I’m reminded of an email from my nephew (send to most of the family) this spring. Their little girl was just about 2 and absorbing words as fast as she heard them… his addendum that “the fact that the last two were “Oi” and “Monkey” might be revealing” – had everyone in stitches. Our M is a red-head and if it can be climbed… well lets just say that in that respect she is very like a kitten.

    3. I used to carry Chloe around on my shoulder. That worked until she was fully grown. Having a 4kg Burmese leap off your shoulder is quite painful!

      1. Next door’s cat used to drape itself around my neck (rather like a tippet) while I was gardening. Its purr was deafening! It used to have to check carefully to make sure my dog wasn’t about, though; he chased off ALL interlopers.

  21. Quotes from “The Great McGinty”, (from IMDB). In my view it is the definitive guide to success in politics with an emphasis on getting the voting right.

    “Skeeters: If it wasn’t for graft, you’d get a very low type of people in politics. Men without ambition. Jellyfish.
    Catherine: Especially since you can’t rob the people anyway.
    Skeeters: Sure. How was that?
    Catherine: What you rob, you spend, and what you spend goes back to the people. So, where’s the robbery? I read that in one of my father’s books.
    Skeeters: That book should be in every home.

    and

    Skeeters: What do you think this is, Hicks Corners? Some people is too lazy to vote, that’s all. They don’t like this kind of weather. Some of ’em is sick in bed and can’t vote. Maybe a couple of ’em croaked recently. That ain’t no reason why Mayor Tillinghast should get cheated out of their support. All we’re doing is getting out the vote.”

    Back in the real world Tim Sullivan offered a guide to multiple voting:
    “Sullivan’s most common tactic, with no voter ID, was to use “repeaters.” Here’s how he described it, “When you’ve voted’em with their whiskers on you take’em to a barber and scrap off the chin-fringe. Then you vote’em again with side lilacs and a mustache. Then to a barber again, off comes the sides and you vote’em a third time with the mustache. If that ain’t enough, and the box can stand a few more ballots, clean off the mustache and vote’em plain face. That makes every one of ’em good for four votes.”

    Real and False. False and Real. Hard to tell which is which, isn’t it?

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032554/quotes/?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Sullivan

  22. Quotes from “The Great McGinty”, (from IMDB). In my view it is the definitive guide to success in politics with an emphasis on getting the voting right.

    “Skeeters: If it wasn’t for graft, you’d get a very low type of people in politics. Men without ambition. Jellyfish.
    Catherine: Especially since you can’t rob the people anyway.
    Skeeters: Sure. How was that?
    Catherine: What you rob, you spend, and what you spend goes back to the people. So, where’s the robbery? I read that in one of my father’s books.
    Skeeters: That book should be in every home.

    and

    Skeeters: What do you think this is, Hicks Corners? Some people is too lazy to vote, that’s all. They don’t like this kind of weather. Some of ’em is sick in bed and can’t vote. Maybe a couple of ’em croaked recently. That ain’t no reason why Mayor Tillinghast should get cheated out of their support. All we’re doing is getting out the vote.”

    Back in the real world Tim Sullivan offered a guide to multiple voting:
    “Sullivan’s most common tactic, with no voter ID, was to use “repeaters.” Here’s how he described it, “When you’ve voted’em with their whiskers on you take’em to a barber and scrap off the chin-fringe. Then you vote’em again with side lilacs and a mustache. Then to a barber again, off comes the sides and you vote’em a third time with the mustache. If that ain’t enough, and the box can stand a few more ballots, clean off the mustache and vote’em plain face. That makes every one of ’em good for four votes.”

    Real and False. False and Real. Hard to tell which is which, isn’t it?

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032554/quotes/?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Sullivan

  23. A belated good morning all.
    Third time lucky, (ran out of jabs and had to postpone once) M Better H and i had to go to the local surgery for the long awaited flu jab, not a doctor insight !!!
    Now looking after our lovey 9 month grand daughter, son dropped her off earlier. I’m not use to getting down on the floor to play with children it’s getting a bit difficult. She like a little rocket on the carpet let alone on the wooden floor and she’s into everything.
    Wife’s taken her out in her pram for hopefully her morning doze.
    And now i have to finish off clearing up the garden after the great lopping and burning of the buddleia.
    Our neighbours are still in France i have access to the house, but i managed to slide a fence panel up in the rebates of the concrete posts and prop it up, so i could get under and drag back all the fallen branches on their side.
    Slayders.

  25. Before i disappear.

    https://welovetrump.com/2020/11/04/are-we-about-to-witness-the-greatest-military-sting-operation-of-all-time/

    I would love this to be true because i cannot see Trump allowing this massive fraud by the Dems, because that’s what it is. There is no way Biden got that many votes. No wonder he didn’t come out of his basement, they were going to fix it. I pray that DT fixes them for good…they are a disgusting party.
    Pelosi and Biden both said they were going to fix it but hardly anyone was listening.

    Joe Biden.

    “We’ve got a lot of work to do, i don’t need you to get me elected, i need you once i’m elected. Secondly, we are in a situation and you guys did it for President Obama’s administration before this.
    We have put together, i think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organisation in the history of American politics”.

    PelosiL

    I feel very confident that Joe Biden will be elected President on Tuesday, whatever the end count is, but on the election that occurs on Tuesday, he will be elected. On January 20th, he will be inaugurated President of the United States. So, while we don’t want to be overconfident or assume anything, we have to be ready for how we’re going to go down a different path.

    1. If he gets in the Dems will backstage him with some sort of illness or worse within a few months. there are some very dangerous people in the Dems waiting in the wings and straining at the leash. The dogs of war will out.

      1. we may find that dodgers Joe is not as senile as the republican campaign has been claiming.

        There again, only the democrats would have been so shallow to have come up with such an old guard leader. Not Leader, more a non entity.

      3. The day after Bidon is elected it will be declared that he has Covid and the day after that he will die. Who will grieve? Not the Democrats as it has always been part of their plan.

    2. If he gets in the Dems will backstage him with some sort of illness or worse within a few months. there are some very dangerous people in the Dems waiting in the wings and straining at the leash. The dogs of war will out.

    3. Radioactive markers in ballot papers?

      There was me thinking that the biggest threat to their democracy was the idiots protesting at the counting centres to stop the counting after their favored candidate tried to stop the millions of legally cast votes being included in the result.

      No according to one of the twittering twats referenced in that piece, the threat is the likelihood of a nuclear explosion when all of the ballot papers are brought together.

    2. My (Limp Dim) neighbour expressed the view that Trump would turn the USA into a banana republic if he were re-elected and Biden was a better bet! Um, I said nothing, but thought the more.

  27. Sunak extends the Furlough until end of March. BBC Radio 4 News. BoE to give Government £150 billion. The Government doesn’t appear to have any idea when the epidemic will be over and still throw taxpayer with no attention to the economy.

    1. March will see the fourth (or fifth) wave plus yet another shut-down – until late summer 2021 – followed by the sixth and seventh waves which will cancel Christmas 2021. (An optimist writes)

    2. OMG is this a windup? So we can look forward to being miserable at least until next March? Who is going to get us out of this nightmare? I can’t believe that the government expect us to endure this for that long.

      1. 326162+ up ticks,
        Afternoon VW,
        Call for a General Election with a nationwide understanding that the
        lab/lib/con coalition party will be omitted.

        1. Thing is Ogga we all know that’s an impossibility. And writing to one’s MP doesn’t make much difference although both Alf and I email him separately. He’s quite good he does reply but the more things change the more they stay the same.

          1. 326162+ up ticks,
            Afternoon VW,
            I do beg to differ on the “impossibility”part of your post.

            Without radical change we will complete the destructive campaign bequeathed us via the
            lab/lib/con coalition party / polling booth.

            As for MPs they form the party torso & are overseen by the PM
            to manipulate, the last near straight PM these Isle had was Mrs M Thatcher after she was
            Thomas Becketed a major downhill trajectory was taken by the “in name only ” tory party
            clearly seen from major ongoing.

            Keep in mind cutting off major’s
            head as leader of the make believe tory’s got two more replacements as in the wretch cameron & may.

          2. You differ on the impossibility of changing things.
            How do you propose we do that when there is so little choice on the ballot paper. In the last two GEs I have voted UKIP. The candidates highest attainment was 600 votes. The sitting MP had his majority slashed from, I think, 10,000 to 6,000 with most of the difference going to Limp Dumbs.
            Pray tell what else I could have done or, indeed, those people who no choice but the three main parties could have done.
            It’s all very well you continuing to espouse your blaming the electorate but you never say how that is to be attained. Please tell us all your proposition.

          3. 326162+ up ticks,
            Afternoon AtG,
            Up until late I have been a long term UKIP member only leaving after the UKIP party took to the treachery trail joining the lab/lib/con coalition party.
            The treachery as in the odious treatment of Gerard Batten & Richard Braine.
            Of course the electorate are to blame repeatedly returning to power the same proven failed
            party’s / politico’s.
            After the 24/6/2016 result there was a great multitude of Papillons voicing job done, no need of UKIP now, leave it to the tory’s, unbloodybelievable.
            Then to rub salt into my blistered feet from UKIP leafleting they, the electorate went back to supporting the pro EU lab/lib/con coalition party.
            Check my back posts forever calling for a build on the UKIP party to consolidate the win, but
            no, the electorate went back into the party before country mode.
            The electorate kicked into touch the only credible patriotic proven pro United Kingdom party.
            “I continue to espouse” that is small change when compared to the actions of the electorate in selecting a governance party over the last three decades from three GUARANTEED proven failures.
            Best of the worst, nasal canal gripping, tactical voting appertaining to these three treacherous party’s is in time a nation killer, and time is very nearly up.

          4. Dear ogga
            I agree with almost everything you say but it still doesn’t answer how do you change the voting of the 3 when there is nothing credible to replace them. I don’t know the answer and I don’t think you do either.

          6. 326162+ up ticks,
            O2O,
            I wonder Og just who AtG
            & those in agreement with him DO blame ?
            Especially after a run of
            party leaders such as
            major, the wretch cameron, clegg, may, johnson ALL treachery
            artist.

          7. I am not about apportioning blame. Voting is, by and large, a tribal event. As with most things us humans do.
            Put it this way – there are 4/5 national supermarkets do you do most of your shopping at them or one of them or do you shop at the corner shop who could probably supply you with most of the items you buy?

            You probably shop at one if the big groups. Voting is not a lot different, in my opinion.

            Who do you suggest we vote for.

          8. 326162+ up ticks,
            AtG,
            The current electorate in many respects are voting in party’s on a tribal, family tree fashion, following dad, granddad when the issues of yesteryear are vastly different than issues of today.
            Also those genuine lab/con party’s had respect from the electorate, currently, no longer.
            Personally I would vote for an independent, a protector of hedgehogs before voting lab/lib/con coalition party.
            Peoples should refrain from taking political petrol into the ballot booth feeding the treacherous flames of a lab/lib/con fire, they will finally get seriously burnt, as tis happening.

          11. If the ballot box fails, the only alternative is taking to the streets. Zimmer frames ‘R Us, it will have to be, regrettably!

          12. Good evening Conners
            That could be the only way. In addition to the Zimmer frames don’t forget the Royal Walkingstick Brigade.
            Perhaps it just a plan to get rid of us oldies and the young will just see what’s going on as they’ll never have known anything different.

          13. I think that’s the problem; the young have never known freedom as we have experienced it under Common Law because all they’ve known is corpus juris (ie EU legislation).

          14. Yes the younger ones are of the ‘it is as it is’ school of thought and seem happy to just roll over and accept whatever is said.

        1. It IS the great reset
          Universal Basic Income,straight from the WEF and UN Agenda2030
          “You’ll own nothing and you’ll like it”

      1. Can I get some aas well?

        Aas is the German for carrion. I don’t think you want that. Hence Aasgeier is a vulture.

  28. A recent comment in today’s telegraph letters. Must be tagged at our Bill –

    Roger Fowles
    5 Nov 2020 5:28AM
    Apparently this has just been leaked to the media, and a hastily convened press conference will be held sometime between 5pm and 9pm tonight…

    Government scientists have determined that falls from ladders account for an average of 14 deaths per year (averaged over 6 years). According to HSE statistics, falls from ladders account for almost a third of all injuries and cost the UK economy £60 million every year, as well as being the number one cause of workplace deaths.

    A graph has been produced showing a steep climb in these fatalities if no action is taken. When challenged that the graph was actually a drawing of a ladder up against a wall the response was that this was a scenario not a prediction.

    The gravity of the situation became clear when Boris fell off a 30ft ladder – although he is OK as it turns out he is not up to much and he was only on the second rung.

    Nevertheless, in order to control the ladders, from next Thursday non-essential ladder climbing will become a criminal offence and the ladders removed ( resulting in a suspended sentence). No end date for the restrictions have been set – the government say they are taking things one step at a time.

    I tried ringing the press office for confirmation, but the phone just rung and rung.

    2. You are behind the times. The “working at height” directive came in years ago. The restrictions on the use of ladders and the number of places where you have to use scaffolding instead is weird and “wonderful”.

      1. We have scaffolding. Useful for painting the outside of farmhouses – cheaper to buy than rent, too.

        1. I can reach 5 metres with my aluminium tower scaffolding, comes apart and fits in the back of my car. Only cost just over £400 on Ebay and has been a godsend round the exterior of the house and the adjoining trees for trimming

          1. I am going to have scaffolding erected for work on my house; bill will be nearly £3k. Then there’s the maintenance work on top of that to pay for. Not going to be cheap (but, unfortunately, very necessary).

          3. By the time I’ve gone up to fetch it, brought it back and learned to erect it, it would probably cost more than the quote! 🙂 I do have quite a large detached house and the chimneys will have to be done, too.

        1. Yes, I know, I didn’t require an explanation. Which is why my comment is fairly brief and not, exactly, serious.

          But please believe me when I say that trying to deal with the working at height directive is not a joke at all… As usual it has been heavily gold-plated by the UK authorities and the costs involved in something as minor as replacing a length of broken guttering are now ridiculous (unless you are prepared to employ a cowboy) rather than a builder who takes the health of his staff seriously.

          On the other hand when you’ve spent a year walking (every day) across the spot where a teenager fell off an inadequately guarded cherry picker and landed underneath the roofing sheet he was trying to install – he was dead by the time he reached hospital – you appreciate the reasons for there being a directive. And the jokes pall a bit, too.

    2. Wow. That’s extraordinary. Sadly we all know what usually happens to whistleblowers, they’re the ones who get it in the neck for telling the truth.

  30. SIR – Is there any evidence that a single case of Covid has been transmitted by a player on an outdoor tennis court?

    Ian Statham
    Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

    SIR – To prove that I am unlawfully playing golf, any arresting officer would first have to find my ball in the rough. Good luck with that.

    Peta Vick
    Lytham, Lancashire

    What about the big silver stick you are holding, Peta Vick? And the bag of similar items you are carrying?

    1. She took her golf clubs for a walk?
      Banning golf has got to be one of the most ridiculous rules. You can’t get more distanced than a golf course, surely. Just close the bar if they are really that worried.

      1. That’s precisely what has happened in my club on the Costa Clyde. ‘Safety’ measures include; members should only turn up 10 mins before their tee time, where they have to change in the car park, which is usually frowned upon (this mainly consists of changing footwear); tee times separation has been extended to 8 mins; the flags are not to be touched and a filler has been placed in the hole such that the ball only drops an inch; there are no rakes in the bunkers; the clubhouse (though once opened briefly for food and drink) is closed to all in compliance with Nipoleon’s diktats; before entering the professional’s shop/starters office members need to use the hand sanitiser and wear a face covering; finally no member should touch another member’s balls.

        With the exception of the chance to indulge in food and drink within the clubhouse, these rules have been in use since the course was allowed to re-open in late May/early June (the first three weeks were two-balls only).

      2. That’s precisely what has happened in my club on the Costa Clyde. ‘Safety’ measures include; members should only turn up 10 mins before their tee time, where they have to change in the car park, which is usually frowned upon (this mainly consists of changing footwear); tee times separation has been extended to 8 mins; the flags are not to be touched and a filler has been placed in the hole such that the ball only drops an inch; there are no rakes in the bunkers; the clubhouse (though once opened briefly for food and drink) is closed to all in compliance with Nipoleon’s diktats; before entering the professional’s shop/starters office members need to use the hand sanitiser and wear a face covering; finally no member should touch another member’s balls.

        With the exception of the chance to indulge in food and drink within the clubhouse, these rules have been in use since the course was allowed to re-open in late May/early June (the first three weeks were two-balls only).

  31. Police warn public to expect tougher crackdown on Covid lockdown breaches. 5 November 2020.

    Police have warned the public to expect tougher action against Covid rule-breakers after the home secretary told them to “strengthen enforcement” ahead of England’s second lockdown.

    Martin Hewitt, chair of the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC), said those blatantly and deliberately flouting the regulations should expect punishment.

    A police source stressed this did not mean officers would start “policing people’s private lives” but officers would be quicker to fine or close premises in clear and wilful breach of the new regulations.

    Ahh! Obergruppenführer Hewitt making threats. Anyone remember that quaint”, policing by consent”, where did that go I wonder? These people are taking to their new role with some considerable enthusiasm. They will have no problem sending people off in railway waggons when the time comes!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/05/police-warn-public-to-expect-tougher-crackdown-on-covid-lockdown-breaches

    1. Yes, they no longer look after us. They now control us. The sheepdogs are killing the sheep.

      1. Remember that scene in Tess of the d’Urbervilles when the rogue sheepdog drove the sheep over a cliff?

        1. Thanks to English Heritage, Tess would not now be allowed to lie on a slab at Stonehenge.
          So that’s one tourist less to damage the structure. Why did the Victorian jobsworths not think of that?

        2. Wasn’t that “Far From the Madding Crowd”? I seem to recall that scene in the Julie Christie [sigh] and Alan Bates film version, but maybe the script writer nicked it from Tess to spice up the film?? I’m afraid that all my attempts to read Hardy failed quite early on.

          4. Jude the Obscure was on my reading list for University; I read it, but it still remains obscure!

    2. “those blatantly and deliberately flouting the regulations should expect punishment.” Unless they are a BLM protest, or protesting against Macron outside the French Embassy, presumably?

    3. A police source stressed this did not mean officers would start “policing people’s private lives”

      Make a lie big and blatant enough why don’t you.

      2. If you’re not allowed to invite people into your garden, how does this not mean “policing people’s lives”?

    1. That’s why the government wants to phase out cash. Your debit and credit cards won’t show the reality.

    1. Can you actually be confident that she will be anything other than a public figurehead and puppet for the billionaires who will be the real driving presidency?

  34. SIR – It is upsetting not to be able to find anyone in my area offering poppies on behalf of the Royal British Legion. I would like to make a donation and wear my poppy with pride at this time of remembrance.

    Like so many, I had relatives who lost their lives in conflict: two in the First World War and one in the Second. I have visited the battlefields in Belgium and France, and will never forget the Last Post at the Menin Gate, where my uncle is commemorated on the Memorial to the Missing.

    In this Cenotaph centenary year, even if I can’t find a poppy, I shall still give thanks and remember all those from these shores and from the Commonwealth who gave their lives.

    Nicky Dunnington-Jefferson
    London SW6

    I share your sense of upset, Nicky Double-Barelled; this year I was due to complete my 30th year as a collector, but for some reason I have yet to fully understand, the Royal British Legion didn’t trust me not to catch the Chinese Plague. I fear that donations via this unique activity will be a long way down, but I trust that folks will try to make up for it by going online:

    https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/ways-to-give/donate

    1. I nipped out to get some lamp oil from Handyman House in Malvern, which was selling poppies, and will still be open during the lockdown.

      1. Yes, some local shops here have them, but never as productive as door-stepping your neighbours…

        ‘Morning, JM.

      2. Yes, some local shops here have them, but never as productive as door-stepping your neighbours…

        ‘Morning, JM.

    2. Buy on-line. I didn’t see a single poppy tin to put a donation in while I was in town today.

  35. Morning

    Social media duties

    SIR – Social media companies turned into publishing companies when they began to “moderate” posts. They should therefore be governed by the same laws as all other publishers, having provided themselves with the power to alter, comment upon or to take down contributions.

    Their defence depends on the matter of whether access is open or not. This may present the conundrum for all lawmakers.

    William Blake

    Craven Arms, Shropshire

    1. This is why President Trump threatened to change Section 230 of the Communication Act (updated in 1996 to include internet companies). His argument was that the social media companies were protected from the libel laws covering the press, as they had less control of their content, but once they started to act as editors on their output they should therefore by treated the same.

      Big Tech are obviously unhappy about this but their recent behaviour/censorship in the run up to the US elections has underlined the problem.

    1. I have three close members of my family ‘living with’ cancer; i.e. they are in remission.
      A constant theme when we meet is ‘thank goodness we were diagnosed well before March, 2020″.

    2. Morning

      SIR – Robert Jenrick (Comment, November 2) states that “non-Covid healthcare can continue as normal, so you can use the NHS for treatments, appointments and scans.”.

      How does he reconcile his admirably clear statement with the news that “hospitals have begun cancelling thousands of operations”, including “some cases involving cancer patients”? His is an interesting definition of “normal”.

      Christopher Wilton

      Petersfield, Hampshire

      SIR – Why does a potential Covid case take precedence over an existing cancer case?

      Dr Robert Seaman

      Henlow, Bedfordshire

  37. SIR – Because of the enforced cancellation of their parade and gathering at the war memorial, the people of Eye in Suffolk have been asked to stand at their front doors at 11 o’clock on Remembrance Sunday to observe the two-minute silence.

    Eric Howarth
    Bourne, Lincolnshire

    No, Eric Howarth; that particular act has been cheapened beyond recognition by the government’s tacky, cringe-making PR stunt during Lockdown 1.

  38. Good morning, all. Happy Guy Fawkes Day. Hope your barrels of gunpowder are standing by.

    1. ‘Morning, Bill. We were reminded of Guy Fawkes yesterday evening when 26kg of quivering Lab landed on my lap.

        1. No chance! Besides, it would probably fall off when she’s swimming – assuming she would let us put it on in the first place (most unlikely).

      2. We’ve never had dogs that are bothered by fireworks.
        We wouldn’t actually leave them in garden while the barrage is on, but all we get is a sleepy eye opened for a split second if someone lets off a real thunderclap in the next garden.

        1. The previous cocker used to leap up at the first bang and rush to the back door – tail wagging furiously. Her expression saying, as clearly as a dog can… “come on Mum, there’s a shoot going on out there”. If I opened the door she would then look puzzled by the fact that there were no pheasants to be found in the back garden despite the clear (to her) evidence of guns going off nearby.

        2. Missy used to be shit-scared of fireworks, but in recent years she has calmed down completely.

          1. The same applies to my dog, but his hearing has dulled, so he can’t hear anything but the loudest bangs now.

        1. She us, but only when she is outdoors. We live not far from an MOD training camp, where gunfire is routine. She can be quite close to the range when we walk through the adjoining woods and she doesn’t flinch. Being indoors and hearing fireworks outside just spooks her.

  39. “American voters done “a very bad thing in 2016”, but they had also “pretty much done it again” by failing to give Biden a landslide in 2020.”

    “The Democrat party would probably conclude its failure to wipe out Trump at the polls arose from their platform not being hard-left enough, something it said would heavily impact the 2024 election.”

    Only in that pathetic rag, the Guardian!

    1. What? Standards at the Graun are slipping? Just when you thought they had hit rock-bottom they go and prove you wrong…

      ‘Morning, Sguest.

    2. One day Lefties won’t be condescending wretches. Until then, my mantra holds: if the Guardian hates something, do it. It it supports something, do the opposite.

    3. What? Standards at the Graun are slipping? Just when you thought they had hit rock-bottom they go and prove you wrong…

      ‘Morning, Sguest.

  40. Sherelle Jacobs today:

    Today’s rotten win for Covid authoritarianism has similar perfume notes to the Iraq War. A weak Prime Minister has been bounced into a second lockdown by state scientists and their dodgy dossier of data. MPs yesterday voted “blind” on fresh restrictions without having a chance to fully digest the guidelines. A modelling blitzkrieg has petrified the masses, as three quarters back No 10, according to the polls.

    Outnumbered lockdown-sceptics have put up an impressive guerrilla fight, trying to strangle the Government’s mangled modelling at birth. In this, Carl Heneghan has proved a hero, blasting No 10’s false and outdated projection of 4,000 daily deaths by next month. Still, this week we were routed. Sir Patrick Vallance’s slick disclaimer that there is a difference between a “prediction” and a “scenario” confounded scientifically illiterate hacks with depressing ease. The counter-argument – that even “scenarios” can be judged by their quality, assumptions, and usage – was too convoluted to go mainstream.

    The lockdown-sceptic mission to expose the deeper flaws at the heart of the modelling backed by the scientific establishment is only now warming up. This week, Steve Baker MP raised the findings of a recent paper on the methodological issues that shame the field of epidemiological modelling with ministers and select committees. But this fight will be vicious. Infectious disease epidemiology is a backwards, inbred and bullying discipline. As the field struggles to explain why it has barely moved on from 1920s theory – ignoring major mathematical leaps – it is closing ranks, as dissenting academics are intimidated.

    But if lockdown-sceptics are going to win this war against the establishment, they also need to capture hearts and minds at the terrified grassroots level. They can only do this by finding a powerful way to articulate that society suffers from top to bottom from a collective sickness: the inability to deal with risk.

    While one notorious estimate by academics recently gathered at Oxford that there is a 19 per cent chance of our extinction by 2100 may be a tad pessimistic, today’s “superwicked” threats to humanity make the Saddam bogeyman seem like Hammer horror vintage. The uncertainty of these risks is a killer. Deadly viruses can be leaked from labs that are actually trying to protect us by better understanding the world’s deadly pathogens. Deciphering the tipping points for global warming is beyond current science. What it will truly mean if AI surpasses general-level intelligence is beyond the human mind.

    As the risks facing society become more complicated and terrifying, we are collapsing into a collective form of OCD, as we fanatically narrow the focus of our concerns. Not unlike the individual who suffers from an obsessive psychiatric illness, as a society we have started to seek order in rituals we can carry out with brittle meticulousness, even though deep down we know they are harming us.

    We can – and we must – go after dodgy modelling, but we need to recognise it as a symptom of the illness, not the cause. Like other practices that have soothed and beguiled humans over the centuries, such as storytelling, magic, art and spiritualism, modelling is just the latest way we have found to simplify and interpret the world.

    So how do we expose the dangers of this collective sickness, and hammer home that civilisation’s future hinges on our ability to deal with risk? Better illustrating that eliminating one risk triggers a thousand more might be one place to start. This won’t be easy with Covid. Lockdowns kill those least visible in society. The state has no indicator for measuring food poverty. There is a six-month delay in suicide deaths being registered, because of the need for a coroner’s inquest. Security protocols make keeping a log of domestic abuse victims next to impossible (case workers can’t follow up on women who provide only an email address for contacting them in case their partners have the password, for example).

    The irony is that, in the absence of accurate data, modelling-sceptics need to be willing to fudge their own creative calculations. One study, which has logged likely and moderately likely suicide deaths to speculate that child suicide may have risen during the pandemic, shows how researchers can still build a picture without all the information. Lockdown victims can be modelled just like Covid deaths. The resultant figures may prove inaccurate. But therein lies the 21st century’s great challenge: as Sweden testifies, our politicos need to become both more comfortable with ambiguity and more balanced.

    Above all, the guesswork and mysteries around modern dangers cannot remain the dirty secret of elites. That may seem a tall order: Covid has taught us that the instinct for self-preservation – not sunlit optimism or an appetite for risk – is the lifeblood of populism. But so it is the lifeblood of politicians. And deceitful triumphalism – whether that’s “defeating” a virus or “waging war” on terror – has a habit of catching up with leaders.

    Tony Blair’s inability to grasp the need for the centre to shift from managerial control-freakery to realism about risk finished him, and doomed the Left for 20 years. Switchers to Farage’s new Reform party would do well to write to their Tory MP and remind them.

    Leading BTL comment:

    Nick Brajkovich
    5 Nov 2020 6:46AM

    All the MPs who voted fro the lock down should be made to watch the video of that poor retired nurse being arrested for trying to rescue her 97 year old mother from the retirement home in which she has been imprisoned since March

    After seeing that shocking, cruel and barbaric scene I now know that this country will never be the same again……those MPs voting for the lock down, despite knowing that the justification for it has been utterly discredited and debunked have , in effect sent us down the path to an authoritarian police state……these MPs are the enemies of the people

    There will be a breaking point and I believe that we are not far from it ………….torturing an entire nation and destroying the very fabric of society …all based on lies and dodgy, selectively interpreted statistics….pumped out by the BBC and other MSM to scare us into submission

    I’m not surprised the remembrance day commemorations have been banned……….it would have brought into sharp focus the sacrifice that millions of our forefathers made so that we can be free and enjoy our lives without let or hindrance …….and it would have made people think …what has become of us ?…..what have THEY done to us ? Scared witless, cowering like sheep following every ridiculous dictat based on comedic science

    I am beginning to understand what it must have felt like to be a Jew in Germany in the 1930s

    IF we ever get the chance to vote again our treacherous MPs need defenestrating and a new system is needed ………..one that actually protects the liberties and interests of the people of this country.

    1. “What it will truly mean if AI surpasses general-level intelligence is beyond the human mind.”

      One wonders whether the people who programmed the world’s finest chess playing machine, AlphaZero, by “showing” it the rules of the game and the objectives and then let it teach itself, could do the same with some of the epidemiologists models or create new predictive models.

      https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-future-is-here-alphazero-learns-chess

      1. True artificial intelligence would weigh the cost of human life against the probability of survival.

        In the end, it comes down to cold, hard numbers. If 0.0001 more people per thousand die as a result of COVID, chances are AI would let things carry on. However MPs are not logical. They are elected They are terrified of being tarred with the COVID brush.

        However AI would do many things differently. It would with draw welfare for the long term unemployed. It would cancel child benefit. It would build more power stations. It wouldn’t tax car, it would remove the taxes on next generation ones.

        In short, AI would think, rather than follow a herd of agenda driven, rich, wasteful, useless, arrogant fools expecting to capitalise on the misery of others.

        1. Notwithstanding AlphaZero, AI is only as good/ruthless as its programmers.
          What you are asuming is that AI would do what you think/would like it to do. It might equally decide that long term unemployment benefits keep the peace, that more child benefit allows the most productive to work unfettered . It might build fewer but better power stations. It might find better ways of providing public transport so that cars are not needed at all.

          The thing that made AlphaZero so extraordinary is that it found new ways of solving old problems.

    2. “What it will truly mean if AI surpasses general-level intelligence is beyond the human mind.”

      If?

      Human intelligence levels have already been surpassed by most species of animal, plant, fungus and amoeba!

      1. Not intelligence – ability to think. Humans are ignorant, stupid, venal, arrogant and backward who don’t understand facts or evidence unless it suits their own narrative.

        They’re still intelligent, but choose not to use it. Frankly such characters are a waste of materials.

    3. The latest email I received (I’m laying a wreath) from our local RBL is that the commemoration is going ahead at the cenotaph as planned.

  41. SIR – I am wondering whether Professors Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and Neil Ferguson were involved in forecasting the scale of Joe Biden’s vote – or did the pollsters just use the same algorithm? ?

    Either way, why does anyone still pay attention to any of them?

    Ben Giesbrecht
    Swansea

    The real mystery is how a nation of 330 million people managed to come up with two such hideous numbskulls!

    1. Really, I find that a careless, arrogant and unjustified comment. As I commented to a Spectator group, under Andrew Neill, who were similarly sneering at Trump: try to take on Donald Trump in debate and let’s see who is the closer to being a numbskull. Personally, I regard Trump, despite his massive, and costly, flaws an exceptional human being, exceptional in energy and showmanship (a mark of great intelligence – I look at him compared to myself and I am HUMBLE). Most importantly, he’s in bat on the side of the angels, and it’s crucial that he carries his bat for at least four more years.

    2. Really, I find that a careless, arrogant and unjustified comment. As I commented to a Spectator group, under Andrew Neill, who were similarly sneering at Trump: try to take on Donald Trump in debate and let’s see who is the closer to being a numbskull. Personally, I regard Trump, despite his massive, and costly, flaws an exceptional human being, exceptional in energy and showmanship (a mark of great intelligence – I look at him compared to myself and I am HUMBLE). Most importantly, he’s in bat on the side of the angels, and it’s crucial that he carries his bat for at least four more years.

    3. Really, I find that a careless, arrogant and unjustified comment. As I commented to a Spectator group, under Andrew Neill, who were similarly sneering at Trump: try to take on Donald Trump in debate and let’s see who is the closer to being a numbskull. Personally, I regard Trump, despite his massive, and costly, flaws an exceptional human being, exceptional in energy and showmanship (a mark of great intelligence – I look at him compared to myself and I am HUMBLE). Most importantly, he’s in bat on the side of the angels, and it’s crucial that he carries his bat for at least four more years.

      1. 326162+ up ticks,
        Morning LD,
        To bloody true, our “leaders” are swallowing halal fodder & sh!tting
        rhetoric treacherous crap / actions.

      2. Good morning, LD. Four years ago I welcomed the arrival of a Republican at the White House. Here was someone steeped in business and not from a political background. Unfortunately the gilt soon fell away, to reveal a man with a towering arrogance and surprising ignorance. I think back to leaders of stature, like Kennedy, Reagan, Bush Snr. Sure, they made mistakes, but I never had them down as rude, loud-mouthed bullies. I fear that Trump has greatly damaged the right wing cause, which will take a long time to heal. I regard him as an ignorant extremist, and they are invariably bad news. I prefer politicians to be, ideally, just right of centre. I can even live with the left wing type, provided they always aim for the centre ground. Rightly or wrongly I regard Trump’s type of blundering politics embarrassing and highly destructive, born in the main of a defective intellect. I’m sorry if you regard that as sneering, but each to his own of course. America needs to move on from four years of highly divisive and destructive leadership. Winning hearts and minds should be the aim of every leader. Some confuse bullying and arrogance with strong and effective leadership, but these traits are miles apart. I prefer leaders to come without “massive and costly flaws”!

        1. You also failed to point out that Trump’e suits are tasteless and his trouser creases grotesque, and that John F. Kennedy got in by a hair, sorry a mysterious van of ballots found long after the end of voting, which materialiized in Chicago – or, indeed, that JFK had quickies with 1000s of chicklets, whilst the Secret Service kept watch for any sign of an approaching Jacqui Kennedy. This didn’t help his back condition and he often had to wear a back-brace, which meant he had no chance of ducking if an assassin ever took a pot-shot at him …. yes, like his father bootleg-Joe, JFK was an exceptional individual one could look up to …. 1000s of chicklets did precisely that in his 3-year Presidency.

    5. I’m amazed that a population of 320 million and counting, could only come up with 2 retirees as candidates for the most powerful job in the land.
      At least our candidates are still of working age.

      1. I am even more amazed that – leaving Trump aside – 100 million people could vote for a man with advanced dementia. Bewildered.

          3. Steady, now…it seems we shall soon see how ‘Soundbite Man’ gets on. If he can make it through one term I’ll be amazed. Expecting two would be excessively optimistic.

            Moaning, Annie.

  42. OT – calling all ornithologists. On Tuesday – two miles from Fulmodeston (at the crossroads of the New Road to Hindolveston and the B1110 – Grizz) – we saw a large bird. Looked like a kite at first. The tail was spread out like a kite – but when it flew over the car the tail was shaped like a rounded “V”. The wings had feathery “fingers” at the ends and their underside was pale.

    Any suggestions gratefully received.

    1. I have an experienced female ornithological friend who lives in Wales but is currently at her second home in North Norfolk. She has not reported any unusual raptor sightings so my guess (from your description) could be one of possibly two seasonal occurrences.

      Male hen harrier Circus cyaneus, which spend the winter months in lowland locations, or
      Rough-legged buzzard Buteo lagopus, a winter visitor from the continent.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3dec78f56c3b256ec1e81a8dada9ffb00776637c92767d6206a4362e44542c2c.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/eaf34f72423cc07489dd19577163b8b9e2d3a4bffb3d0ec5616c9e213bf8e47c.jpg

      I usually get to know, first-hand, of any rarities in the county so I’m guessing that one of these two may be what you saw.

      1. I am much obliged. The MR – who saw more of it than I did – thinks it was a male Hen Harrier. We saw a female in the hills above Nice in 2010 – an amazing sight, as we were higher than the bird – and were able to watch it while it flew about a mile in a long curve just below us

      2. An Oomagoolie bird? – has very short legs and when it lands it cries that distinctive cry “Oomagoolies”

      1. Much bigger than a buzzard. There are dozens of them round here and we can identify them. It was the size of this bird that stumped us.

          1. Many people visiting Scotland see a common buzzard sitting perched on a fence post as they drive by. They then tell all their friends that they have seen a “golden eagle” (which never perch on fence posts and are twice the size of the largeish buzzard).

            The Scots are aware of this phenomenon and have christened buzzards as “tourist eagles”.

          2. Even in deepest, darkest Ayrshire, whilst driving around the (even) more rural areas, buzzards sitting on fenceposts are a common sight.

          3. Same here in deepest Shropshire. I watched one try to take a crow the other day. As I was walking the dog I didn’t see the outcome.

    1. “And the Last Trump Shall Sound” – Harry Turtledove. Or should that be “And the Trump Shall Last Sound”?

  45. Steerpike
    Watch: SNP politician grilled by Andrew Neil
    5 November 2020, 1:30pm

    SNP politicians often get an easy rise when they appear on politics programmes south of the border, where most of the discussion tends to revolve around the performance of the Westminster government.

    Unfortunately, that was not the case for the SNP MP Alyn Smith, who appeared on the BBC’s Politics Live this afternoon. Near the end of the show, the politician received quite the grilling from Andrew Neil, who was appearing on the show as a guest for the final time.

    Neil began by tearing apart the SNP’s woeful record on poverty and deprivation, after which Smith suggested the SNP needed more powers to solve Scotland’s problems. In response, Neil pointed out that the party was entirely in charge of education – and yet the attainment gap between rich and poor had widened during the SNP’s tenure.#

    https://youtu.be/QcC28lhLx1Y

          2. Ich hab’ ihm eine wohlverdiente Belehrung erteilt. Die beleidigte Leberwurst hat seine Frau geschickt, mich zu ermahnen. Und wie Du siehst, die kleine Welpe konnte keine Gelegenheit vorbeigehen lassen, den Topf aufzurühren.

  46. My family and I lived in Rutland for 30 years. It gave me a wonderful childhood. Its motto is Multum in Parvo.

    However, according to the DT, it has just taken what I consider to be a backward step. Rutland used to be the only county without a MacDonald’s hamburger outlet. Today they are opening one in Oakham.

    The mayor of Oakham, a socialist, who seems to think that he represents the entire county said “At the end of the day do you want to keep Rutland as it was – it’s a very quiet place, nothing happens, it’s very well to do” and that this “would stop it becoming “full of old people””. (By his standards it has always been full of old people but it is ‘the well to do’ who have run businesses and created jobs).

    It will now be full of fat people and I hope the mayor has plans to build a hospital to accommodate them when the inevitable happens! I hope he is also ready for the council to clear up the predictable increase in litter!

    As long ago as 1973 I had an American girlfriend in Beirut. Despite the wonderful food there, she constantly said that she wished she could have a MacDonald’s hamburger. When I went to the US the following year, I had one such hamburger. I thought it was disgusting and I have only eaten two in all the intervening years, delivered to our office, just to be sociable with business colleagues!

    1. ” It will now be full of fat people ” – – -and the local hedgerows and gardens will soon be full of the empty cartons, having been carelessly discarded out of car windows.

        1. If there were no fast food outlets, however, there would be no fast food packaging for the slovenly buggers to chuck out of car windows. Just a thought.

          1. Indeed.
            You could apply that process everywhere.
            If there was no horseracing, there would be fewer opportunities for addictive gamblers and the mafia.

          2. Not true; addictive gamblers would still bet on raindrops falling down a window or flies buzzing round a light bulb, never mind football, hockey, and all the rest!

          3. Well; I’ve picked up plenty of fish and chip papers over the years – so McDonald’s cartons won’t be any worse.

            The ones who are prepared to throw dirty disposable nappies out of car windows are the worst – and, short of banning babies, I think it would be difficult to prevent that.

    2. Surely if there is no demand from the locals then the place will do poorly? McDonald’s don’t open place randomly.

      I’d also present that people don’t get fat from eating McDonald’s. They get fat from eating too much – of anything.

    3. I’ve eaten the anodyne products of McDonald’s in my youth and was never impressed.The products of Burger King (among the chains) is far better and tastier but nothing compares with making one’s own home-made hamburger with some decent minced beef (chuck for preference) and home-baked bread.

      I used to go to an excellent pseudo-American hamburger café on Eccleshall Road, Sheffield, called Uncle Sam’s Chuckwagon. The hamburgers they produced, from top quality beef and grilled over charcoal, were excellent.

        1. For me, there are no ‘undesirable’ parts of the carcase: I’m a real nose-to-tail man. When I make my sausages and hamburgers, I select the parts that hold most flavour. That means shoulder and belly for pork; and chuck, shin, skirt and clod for beef. I cannot source any pigs’ dicks or bulls’ nuts so I have to go without!

          2. McDonald’s do not use mechanically reclaimed meat at all. They had a big policy change on produce standards quite a long time ago.

      2. The Great American Disaster in the Fulham Road near the Gaumont Cinema used to make very good hamburgers. In the late 60’s/early 70’s there was a craze for American style ‘hamburger joints’: The Walrus and the Carpenter in Bath was quite good as was Bananas in Exeter.

      3. I have never had a MacDonald’s or Burger King ‘burger, and I am pleased to say that we took neither of our sons to either of these. They probably thought I was a real spoilsport at the time, and most likely went occasionally with friends as they got older. They are quite proud of the fact now that their Mum deprived them so in the name of sensible nutrition.

    4. I am delighted to say that – in my 79 years – I have never eaten any food from Macdonalds

          1. Wouldn’t know. I’m with Bill on all of these chains. A homemade hamburger made from freshly ground mince with a little onion and seasoning, tomato and a relish is delicious. Even better with some blue cheese.

          2. Morning, Paul.

            But you like brown cheese, boiled sheep’s heads (including the eyeballs), lutfisk, surströmming and many other Nordic “delicacies”? 😉

          3. Brown cheese, yes. Sheeps head – well…. eyes (vomit!); lutefisk is only good if accompanied by bacon and akevitt! Norwegian version of surströmning, Rakfisk, is nice on bread, with finely diced onions and amybe a little cream.

        2. Nope – nor a Wimpy Bar nor KFC – never in any “fast food” place. Never been tempted.

          1. I have often wondered whether the word ‘fast’ in this context describes the speed at which it leaves the body…

          2. MOH and I used to frequent Wimpy Bars when we were courting; but we only drank coffee and milkshakes, never ate there.

      2. I ate in a Macdonalds in Canada in 1988. I am delighted to say I have not been in another since.

        1. The only 1/2 decent food I ate on a fortnight’s skiing holiday in Canada (Lake Louise) was the eggs florentine at breakfast.

        2. Agree, Peddy.
          McDonalds don’t force their burgers down unwilling throats, people choose to go there and pay for them and eat them. If a few individuals eat too many and get fat, that’s a matter for individual judgement and freedom of choice, surely? In the same vein, maybe Rutland should deplore mobile phones, because some kids watch too many videos on them? Ban cars, because people don’t exercise enough and get fat?
          Because one has opinion is that something is not pleasant, should the whole world be prevented from experiencing that as well?

          6. There have been a few moments in my life when a Bigmac has been most welcome, but I certainly don’t make it a habit.

          9. It used to be a shopping “treat” for the boys when young – a stop at McDs – not every week, but 2-3 times a month, I suppose.
            Nobody got fat.

      6. I have and, although not to my taste, I can see its appeal to many.
        Like accepting totalitarianism, it is palatable if you don’t like thinking.

        2. It is palatable fuel for those who need to eat away from home and can’t afford the expensive places. You know exactly what you can get so you are not taking a chance on anything. It’s perfectly adequate as fuel on an occasional basis, and, as I said above, they are very demanding about the produce they use so you are not getting rubbish.

          1. While I don’t disagree, my own preference would be to prepare something to take with me.

            I have a glove box full of chewy breakfast bars for example. If I know it’s going to be a slog I’ll make sandwiches before hand. As for me that’s usually roast beef and some breadcrumbs (as the war queen described them) I know that we’re actually getting some decent food.

          2. The last time I ate McDonald’s was when I was stranded by a delayed train in a town I really didn’t know. I hadn’t prepared food because I hadn’t intended to need any and carrying it around with me would have been difficult since I was already carrying a lot of work stuff (I was there for a training course) – and McD’s was within the station building so I could keep an eye on the notice board and see what was happening with the train timetable. I know what goes into McD’s and it is despite everything “decent food”.

            I did not use the word “need” accidentally. Sometimes one simply does need to eat away from home.

          3. I doubt if any ex-Serviceman used to existing on compo rations for weeks at a time would disagree.

          4. Having eaten a certain amount of compo, I would be inclined to agree with that assessment.

          5. I feel the same and there are few more culinary challenged than I! I would far rather knock up a sandwich than eat something of whose provenance I know nothing.

    5. I have been astonished in recent weeks to see people queuing in the cold outside McDonalds. Is there a (secret) addictive ingredient in their products? Don’t get me wrong, I like a cheeseburger and “fries” as much as the next man, but I can live without.

      1. You are probably right, JBF. Pringles are supposed to contain an additive that makes them highly more-ish. Perhaps the fast food industry is using it too?

    6. Interestingly France is the largest market for McDonalds outside the USA.

      Haut cuisine anybody?

      2. I once went into a McDonalds in France. It was just like here – the staff only spoke English as a second language (if at all).

        One difference – the French staff were actually French.

        1. Many years since we’ve been to France and I think McDonald’s also sold wine and beer. Is that right.

        2. I have been to a McDo in France, too. I wasn’t impressed. I was once taken by a friend to McDonalds in England and had a McFlurry. I wasn’t impressed by that, either. I don’t think I’ve acquired the necessary (lack of) taste 🙂

    7. You may not approve of what they do with it but McDonald’s (no “a” in the Mc) are very fussy about the produce they buy; increasingly so in recent years.

      They don’t use mechanically reclaimed meat, they reject loads of spuds at the factories making their fries for the slightest defect, and they make their shakes with organic milk. They pay above the going the rate for good produce.

      I think that Americans are like everyone else; sometimes when home is a long way off you just want something familiar, not necessarily expensive or fancy – just something that tastes of home. That, surely, is understandable.

  49. I read Dr Mike Yeadon’s article on yesterday’s Nottler site and was appalled, but not surprised, by the story he told about Covid – 19 testing, in particular , a PCR test Laboratory as described by an employee in the Laboratory. He was inexperienced as were his fellow workmates. The samples arriving at the lab were not transported according to essential protocols. The samples were not always kept upright but often piled up on top of one and other and in unsuitable transport.
    The testing in the lab was done by mostly inexperienced staff’.
    The rush to get hundreds of thousands of tests done and no obvious control over the testing laboratories and staff adds to the uselessness of the PCR in giving sensible results.
    Dr Yeadon has no respect for the competence of the SAGE team.
    The latest Government farcical, costly idea is to test the entire population of Liverpool. for COVID-19.
    In the light of Dr Yeadon’s article, if I were a Liverpudlian, I would avoid taking the test. As far as I am aware that is their right.

  51. Good afternoon, Chums.

    Today I think I have been an intended
    victim of a two pronged scam:

    08.40 a ‘phone call supposedly from BT
    telling me my internet line had been taken
    over by fraudsters who now have access
    to my bank details….
    I said nothing, letting them rattle on
    until they cut off the call.
    Their number is not ‘recognised.’

    14. 10 a ‘phone call supposedly from Amazon
    telling me my account has been taken over
    by internet fraudsters and
    would I confirm I had spent £1140.11
    on a new iphone II, if I had not ordered it
    would I cancel the order, I told the ‘caller’
    ….. a nice Indian lady… ” No, I will not cancel
    the order since I haven’t placed an order
    and good luck with trying that anyway!” At this
    point the phone call was ended.
    This number was also unrecognised,

    1. We sure have to keep our wits about us Garlands. Are you able to block the call afterwards? On our system, after we’ve listened to an unknown number calling and hanging up when we don’t answer, we can press 14258 and block that number. Those keys are nearly worn out now!

    4. We have a BT call guardian phone and we never get those calls now. Anyone who is not in the list of known people comes up as an ‘announced call’ and I can either answer it or wait for call guardian to screen them. I usually answer them if there is a number.

  52. If bloody only……………..
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e7c8689c9333b3dd7db3aef0467fbbfa660513be7e06f0dfae2c734aa7a745a.jpg
    In the last month
    3 “Accident” scammers
    4 “Amazon acc” scammers
    2 “Insulation” scammers
    1″Microsoft” scammer
    2 “Imternet Shutoff” scammers

    And the icing on the cake,the HMRC scam “Press 1 or a warrant for your arrest will be issued”
    A plague on them all and I mean something far far worse than the ‘Rona

    1. I usually forward the Amazon and PayPal emails to “spoof@…”. However there is no place to which you can forward fake HMRC, or blackmail emails.
      The police websites have advice but no email address for fraud investigations.
      When I forward an email, I always ask the recipient to track down the fraudsters and kill them. I don’t know if they do that.

      3. HMRC – or any public sector institution – will ever send you an email, a text message or any other simple, quick form of response.

        They will always send a snail mail brown envelope several weeks after the point they’ve made their decision. The state is slow because it has no impetus to be responsive.

        1. It is indeed. “You owe us £400 in unpaid tax. You have 14 days to pay.”
          “You have paid £1000 too much tax. We will send you a cheque in two months.”

          I don’t think that either the government or government agencies, or the police, or the justice system have any interest at all in stopping cybercrime, online fraud or blackmail and extortion.
          Now, about “Hate Crime”, that’s a different thing entirely, somebody somewhere may have suffered injury to their feelings.

          1. Fraud, extortion and blackmail are annoying and require legislation, lawyers and effort but worse of all, proof and evidence.

            Much easier to record hurty feelings that require no burden of proof, have no real victim and the police can chalk up to help the statistics.

  53. Not only yes but hell yes

    Brendan O’Neil

    “The liberal elite in the UK is shocked –

    shocked, I tell you – that Donald Trump is refusing to concede defeat in

    the presidential election. There’s even talk of him taking the election

    to court. And he’s stirring up mobs of people to protest against the

    vote on the basis that it is fraudulent, illegitimate, a stitch-up by

    faceless forces in the establishment, etc etc. What kind of person

    behaves in such a shamelessly undemocratic fashion, these

    pearl-clutching Brits want to know?

    Well, there’s

    an easy answer to that question: you. You behave like this. You spent

    the past four years doing what Trump is now doing, only in an even more

    unhinged way. You went to court, took to thestreets, and went berserk on

    Twitter on a daily basis as part of a hateful crusade to overthrow the

    largest democratic vote in the history of our country: the vote for

    Brexit. So perhaps wind your necks in, yes?”

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/11/05/remoaners-calling-trump-anti-democratic-give-me-a-break/

    1. Ah, bur there is a crucial difference between the two cases: the Brexit vote total was at least 99.5% legitimate, whereas I think we will find upon examination of watermarks for one that at least 5% of the Democrat vote in 8 swing states with Democrat administrations, were ballots printed off by the Democrats and filled in, kept in reserve, (and some in the name of voters born in 1902), and wheeled out in the hours between 10pm (near the bedtime of many poll counters) and 4am. That was Wednesday. Overnight Thursday, the Democrats found more ballots in Pennsylvania and Georgia.

      No wonder Joe Biden didn’t bother to campaign.

        1. I now understand what Mandelson meant when he said we are now living in the post-democratic age!

    2. Ahh, the Left will say. That’s different.

      They’ll then follow that with soe blither about how anti democratic Brexit was, how they really won and why Brexit must be opposed regardless of the outcome. Probably ending with seig heil or some such while calling people Nazi’s.

      After all, they are really, truly not especially self aware.

  54. There is a letter to the DT about apprentice lawyers and articled clerks. I was an articled clerk to an accounting firm. Fortunately my father did not have to pay a premium, but I was paid a salary of £3. 4s. 6d. per week.

    In later years I had to recruit for my firm. The level of competence had declined and I had to interview many people before finding one who I thought could actually do the job, despite the sheaves of certificates that people presented for my perusal.

    I used to receive numerous applications for jobs, some of them very amusing. For example, one told me that “I ought to help others”. Another assured me that he had “hidden assets” and a further one informed me that he “has a good physique and active habits”!

    1. £3. 4s. 6d. per week?

      That is exactly 1d more than my first take-home pay packet as an engineering apprentice when I left school in 1967.

      2. When I worked in an advertising agency as a trainee in 1964 I earned £8 pw so my father helped me pay my £5 a week rent in a shared flat in Paddington.

        In those days there was no fax or e-mail so a trainee’s first job was as messenger boy delivering advertising copy to the companies’ clients, along with the drafts of art work, printing blocks and other advertising paraphernalia. I greatly enjoyed this and it taught me my way around London. It also enabled me to supplement my income by pocketing the money I got from tube, bus and taxi fares because, as I was relatively fit at the age of 18, I could reach the delivery point for my deliveries by foot more quickly than by taking public transport.

          2. Ignoring the 7 shillings a week as a paperboy my first ‘wage’ was £1.50 a WEEK as an RAF Apprentice

          5. I was going to add clothes, but then concluded that uniform and “boiler suits etc” were necessary as tools of the trade.

          6. I was going to add clothes, but then concluded that uniform and “boiler suits etc” were necessary as tools of the trade.

          7. Yes overalls supplied but we still had to buy ‘civvies’ for when we were allowed off camp

          9. I often wonder how much my dad got as a conscripted RAF ground crew corporal in the WW2. I have his building society deposit book and he was only putting a few shillings in at irregulat intervals. Conscripts seem to have been almost slaves during the war years and not much better in your apprentice years in the RAF.

          10. A noble sum (for those who know their mediaeval coinage).
            Edit: If you mean 6/8d, then we’ll need to Mark it.

      4. Hate to boast; my first job paid £4.10s per week.
        I left it to get a job paying a head spinning £8.00 per week.

          1. 1962 was the start of my 5 year apprenticeship.
            £2.10 shillings a week, after tax and fares etc i had about one pound and ten shillings left.
            Hardly life in the fast lane eh Alf, as you had it ………!😉

          2. I used to give my mum 30 Bob a week out of the £6. I still felt well off and didn’t really save any.

        2. My first job paid £119 per mensem. I spent it (and an extra £1) on a colour television for my flat!

    2. I, too, was articled, in 1959. The first not to have to pay a premium of 500 guineas (which would have been completely beyond my parents – a year’s pay for my Dad). I didn’t get paid until I passed the Law Society’s Intermediate exams and Trust accounts and Book-keeping – then, in Jan 1962 I was paid £5 a week – less tax and NI, of course. It came out at about £4.9s a week.

      Fortunately I had an evening job with the LCC which topped up my wages and had the totally unexpected bonus of the fees for my six-month Finals course plus exam fees being paid by the LCC as I was an “employee”. Law Society exam fees did not qualify for local authority education grants – so I was dead lucky.

      My later experience, when qualified, suggested that people who had done five years articles had a much better hands on ability, especially in litigation, than the “clever” ones with degrees.

      2. Same with nursing. You learnt a lot more practical skills like dealing with human beings who were not feeling their beast and being part of a team. (Temperatures on the Pluto were balmy compared with a Monday morning shift after you’d thrown a sickie for the weekend.)

        1. My experience from 2 years ago on male wards is that after lights out a lot of patients are “feeling their beast”.

          1. I regularly feel my beast – she’s not complained yet but moving her from one side of the sofa to the other causes hissing.

      3. I was paid £5 a week in those days, my first summer job as tea boy on a building site.

        Although most recruits to the core developer role came as graduates from recognized universities, many other roles were filled from outside the hallowed halls.

        Farm boys and army brats were sought after.

    3. When I was a school teacher (and somewhat reluctant form teacher), one of my tutor group wrote that his interests were “marital arts”. 🙂

    2. If one is supposed to make hay while the sun shines, what weather is suitable for chutney-making?

          1. I suspect that Norway, like Sweden, is a “Land of 2 Winters” – a white Winter & a green Winter.

    3. I’ve got a few green tomatoes after removing the plants from the green house.
      When i get a mo i’m going to use them in some more chutney i made one batch a month ago.

    4. Yesterday, my neighbour gave me a little pot of fermented trombetti. The cow !

      Actually it was very nice.

  59. I would like to thank the moderators today for their presumed removal of a completely unwarranted and rude attack on Alf yesterday. You know who you are and I hope you feel ashamed of yourself.

    Good, though foggy, morning to one and all.

    1. Good morning, vw.

      I too noticed that vile and utterly unprovoked and unwarranted piece of childish petulance this morning. I’m afraid that the two-faced imbecile who wrote it will never feel ashamed. It’s in his nature to be aggressively offensive for no good reason.

      He will crawl all over you if it’s to his advantage, as more than one on here have discovered, either in private or openly on the forum. However, when it doesn’t suit his purposes, he will attack with venomous and unsolicited peevishness. I’m convinced that he is in the early stages of dementia.

      2. Thanks for the enquiry but Not worth repeating Eddy, best forgotten. It hasn’t put anyone off posting.

    3. Good morning, vw.

      I too noticed that vile and utterly unprovoked and unwarranted piece of childish petulance this morning. I’m afraid that the two-faced imbecile who wrote it will never feel ashamed. It’s in his nature to be aggressively offensive for no good reason.

      He will crawl all over you if it’s to his advantage, as more than one on here have discovered, either in private or openly on the forum. However, when it doesn’t suit his purposes, he will attack with venomous and unsolicited peevishness. I’m convinced that he is in the early stages of dementia.

      1. Thanks Grizzly. I had heard rumours. You may well be right in your dementia suggestion, that would at least be a reasonable explanation. Otherwise he is just a nasty individual.

  60. Just back from wonderful bike ride through the lanes. Hardly any breeze. Sunny – chilly but not bitter. Saw the goats who, because I accidentally knocked the metal gate, thought that I was the bearer of food! They voiced their displeasure loudly as we left! Five miles. Home to two happy kittens.

    Life is not all bad!

    1. I must admit the black olives we eat in Turkey are far better than the ones we buy here in France. Caroline does some marvellous eyepopping sauces with olives.

    2. Interesting name, wonder if the extra K is ever added. I guess she doesn’t go to Japan for her hols.

    4. Zarah Sultana (same person?) The Jewish Chronicle reported that in 2015, while she was a student, Sultana made social media posts from a subsequently deleted account which implied that she would celebrate the deaths of former Labour prime minister Tony Blair, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former US president George W. Bush and she supported “violent resistance” by Palestinians. Sultana apologised for the posts and stated that she no longer held those views and “wrote them out of frustration rather than any malice” Wiki

      Edit: Zara Bukake MP is a weird spoof. Not sure what to make of it.

  65. Will the person who downvoted me for my two posts defending Trump earlier, please go and get their Trump Derangement Syndrome treated.

    1. Who’s your down voter – is it the same as mine?

      I got about six yesterday on relatively innocuous posts! I think this person would give me a down vote if all I posted was Good Morning!

          4. I was brought up to believe that applying the adjective ‘Scotch’ to a person was infra dig.

          5. Tell that to Samuel Johnson:
            “The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!”

          6. Well fancy that. (By the way, Rabbie Burns published ‘Scotch Poems’ and said, in his own words, he was proud to be recognised as the best Scotch poet. “The appellation of a Scotch Bard, is by far my highest pride; to continue to deserve it is my most exalted ambition”).

          12. I think my ancestors were all criminals.

            The woman who i believed was my grandmother wasn’t. That was her sister. When my actual grandmother died he moved his mistress in to the family home. She had a baby girl by him same age as me. I must have been the only one at school who was in the same classes with my step aunt.

        2. No, she just lives in Wales. She’s a Scot. Therefore she thinks she’ll get off scot free when she welches 🙂

    1. Far too long. The last one was for 30 seconds but the BBC broke it 45 times before it was abandoned.

  67. A productive day.
    Walk to Cromford for the paper.
    Got a large pan of curried beef stew done, sufficient to last at lease 3 meals for the S@H & me.
    Then did and 8 shovel mix of cement, sufficient to get 10 concrete blocks laid.
    Absolutely clear sky and almost breathless evening, the air is so calm!

    Now about to serve up my share of the beef stew!

    2. That curry is going to be a bit chewy with 8 shovels of cement in it. Still, that should stop the runs…

  71. Third time today I’ve tried to nip into the local post office.
    One about a mile or so away was closed; what with ‘social distancing’ and a huge housing estate now having no post office….

    1. My nearest PO (part of a Nisa supermarket) has reduced hours. Turned up at 0915 with a parcel, was told “we don’t open till 1000”. I was aiming to catch the only bus to the new place at 0930. “Can I not just leave it with you?” I was accused of trying to lose the chap’s job. So an extra bus journey to bloody Aldershot, then a train ride ensued. At least I was able to pop into Greggs for a bacon roll and a coffee.

      Friend Dianne’s local PO in Topsham is by appointment only.

      1. Everything is just such a hassle. I make a list so I don’t need to go again – PO or shops – for several weeks.

        1. I do make a list, but I usually end up missing something off or remembering something I forgot to put on after I got back home 🙁 I am still not used to this shopping lark!

      2. Everything is just such a hassle. I make a list so I don’t need to go again – PO or shops – for several weeks.

      3. That is a pest. We are very lucky here, in that we still have shop which sells basics and also houses the PO – and they have a filling station (between all three the business pays and they’ve invested quite a bit in upgrading over the years).

        Some years ago when the bridge along the road was closed form 06:00 to 18:00 every day for nearly 8 weeks for major repairs (after being damaged in one of the Severn’s many floods) they applied for a “late licence” so that the part of the community which is across the river didn’t have to go miles in the opposite direction to buy stamps. That licence still applies and they are open from 09:00 until 20:00 Monday to Friday. Only basic stuff after 17:00, but that includes buying stamps, posting parcels and paying-in cheques using the approved bank envelopes (because I no longer have a local bank branch). They are so busy that the PO has finally granted their request for a second computer and they will be able to open two “windows” from next week.

  73. WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IRON MAN AND IRON WOMAN?

    ONE IS A SUPER HERO, THE OTHER IS A SIMPLE INSTRUCTION. 🤣

  75. Afternoon, all. Notable by its absence from today’s Speccie, is this piece in the Oz version.

    The best response to Islamism is Christianity
    Michael Nazir-Ali

    It has become normal to think of the Islamist attacks in Europe as attacks on a secular way of life. The beheading of the teacher in Paris, the murders in Notre-Dame in Nice and the shootings in Vienna are presented as a struggle between radical Islamism and a particular kind of enlightened secularism born of the French Revolution. That’s the way Emmanuel Macron sees it; that’s the way most educated atheists across Europe see it. But what they forget is that Enlightenment ethics — the ideas of tolerance and fairness — have their foundation in Christianity. And the best response to violent Islamism isn’t humanism, but the idea of a loving, merciful Christian God.

    As Jonathan Miller says, secularism simply doesn’t have the spiritual and moral resources to tackle a comprehensive social, political, economic and religious ideology like Islamism. To begin with, liberté, egalité and fraternité, the values of French secularism, are not self-explanatory or self-evident. For most of human history, most people have not been free or equal. Brotherhood is, around the world, most often seen as tribal, limited to one’s kinship or ethnic group. In Islam it’s the brotherhood of fellow believers that counts.

    Freedom, liberty and the brotherhood of all men, precious not only in France but throughout the western world, flow from Christianity. It’s Christianity’s insistence on a personal relationship with God and an internalising of his moral demand on us that led to the primacy of the person and of conscience in western thought — this is Larry Siedentop’s insight in his Inventing the Individual.

    Christian freedom of conscience results in the value of free speech; to say what is in our minds and hearts — within reason. Equality, as a value, arises from the Judaeo-Christian teaching that all human beings have a common origin and equal dignity because they have been made in the divine image. It was just this view that led to the Dominican bishop Bartolomé de Las Casas’s brave struggle against the enslavement of the indigenous populations of Latin America, a struggle which gave birth to the language of human rights in Europe. The Christian idea of natural human dignity provided the slogan ‘Am I not a man and a brother?’ for the largely Evangelical-led campaign against the slave trade and then against slavery itself. The radical Enlightenment, on the other hand, ended in the massacres of Robespierre’s Reign of Terror.

    Throughout the ages, there have been Muslims, like the Sufis, who have, along with Christians, emphasised the importance of love. Others have held that there should be no compulsion in enforcing Islam on the unwilling. This is emphatically not the agenda of the man who murdered Samuel Paty. For an Islamist, the aim of jihad is to reduce freedom and equality. Speech, education, dress, diet and opinion are all controlled by the guardians of Islamist orthodoxy.

    So there is a standoff here: the West believes its values to be the product of ‘reason’ alone rather than the result of cumulative tradition and custom. Islamists, on the other hand, hold that their beliefs and values come from divine revelation, which is immutable. Where do we go from here?

    The West needs to recover its nerve and to acknowledge that its values are not freestanding but arise from the Judaeo-Christian tradition. The situation in France and in Austria is a wake-up call for the West. We must re-examine the basis of our life together and remember our past, in order to have a future.

        2. Jesus never had a sword. Peter had one and he got a right bollocking from JC when he chopped somebody’s ear off. I think he meant fight them with the word of Jesus – the only problem is that they are deaf to reason and compassion. The only way to defeat evil is to strike it down wherever it is and in whatever form.

          1. It is pretty well established that when Jesus said “I come with a sword” he was speaking metaphorically. People automatically flock to strong leadership. At the heart of Christianity is a sound set of ethics – if they were confidently proclaimed, people would gather to them. The tragedy of the liberal church is that they bleat liberalism, rather than Christianity.

          2. Didn’t the Angel Aziraphale have a flaming sword that he gave to Adam when they were cast out?

            Boy oh boy…God is a bit of a tetchy landlord.

    2. Absolute total bullshit.

      Trudeau is running scared, just like every other Canadian politicians. They have managed to blunt many of Trumps actions by weaseling their way into senate committees and state level governments, they are not going to risk the wrath of the great orange one by statements like that.

      One of Bidens election promises is to shut down construction of a pipeline that is essential to our Albertan oil industry, a Dem win might give Trudeau a grandad Joe to go suck up to but it is not really in Canadas interests.

      So again, this supposed news article is total bullshit. Shame on you for believing that Trudeau has the guts to be so proactive.

    3. Sorry to rain on the parade, but I would not be surprised if the reason there are early 1900’s is because an automated system put 1900 for people who put down they were born in 2000, because the date will have been, for example, 000213, for 13th February 2000, others might be typos.
      Dates like 1900, 1901 and 1902 would be affected

      I hope I’m wrong and there is extensive, provable fraud, to avoid JB and KH, but an innocent explanation is more probable than a conspiracy.

      1. If that is the case, their computer system is not fit for the purpose. That’s a very well known error.

        1. I’m sure that it isn’t fit for purpose, but as I’ve just observed to HP, the problem would not be manifest until the 2020 election, because one needs to be 18 to vote.

      2. Hang on! The Milennium Bug is going to wreck the Presidential election? Why did it not wreck the previous 21st century elections?
        We need to know.

        1. The simple answer is that people don’t qualify to vote until they are 18, so it would not have appeared as a problem until the 2020 election.

          Next.

          1. Well, yes. However, the programmers were all over the systems in 1999. None of them did a walk-through to the next twenty years? That is a cock-up that makes the UK Passport Office and other national computer disasters etc pale into insignificance.

          2. I recall that there are other “worse” ones still to make their way down the line.

            People “solve” the problem that are set, very few go looking for other problems.

  79. Every time I log in here I have to declare ‘I am not a robot’. A necessary trivial annoyance because of the thousands of ‘bots’ attempting to gain access to ones data and personal information. Annoying, I know, but it reminds me of the fate of the person who coined the word ‘robot’ in its present context.

    It was Josef Čapek, brother of Karel Čapek who wrote the 1920 play (translated in English as) “R.U.R.” (“Rossum’s Universal Robots”). Karel campaigned in favour of free expression and strongly opposed the rise of both fascism and communism in Europe. With the threat of invasion by Germany he was offered the chance to go into exile in England but he refused to leave his country – even though the Nazi Gestapo had named him “public enemy number two”. Karel Čapek suffered from a disease of the spine most of his life. He caught a common cold and died of pneumonia on 25 December 1938. Several months later, just after the German invasion of Czechoslovakia, Nazi agents came to the Čapek family house in Prague to arrest him. Upon discovering that he had already been dead for some time, they arrested and interrogated his wife Olga. His brother Josef was arrested in September and was transported to Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Whilst there he wrote ‘Poems from a Concentration Camp’. and he may well have met and spoken with the ill-fated Anne Frank. He probably died of typhoid and starvation. After the war his wife Jarmila Čapková, went to Bergen-Belsen to search for him but his remains were never found.

    Each time I deny ‘I am a robot’ I am reminded of Josef Čapek, his playwright brother, Karel and the equally unfortunate Anne Frank, that I have spent hours alone at Bergen-Belsen and have slept on the, now hallowed, ground where they once walked.

    If you think this pandemic and its constrictions are a pain, think of them. It could be worse.

    2. We had a good display last night about 7pm. Very colourful and expensive. We got a free view from our dining table.

  81. Chutney prepared, cooked, bottled, labelled and stored.

    96 ounces of ingredients produced 68 ounces of chutney (in which, for the first time, Trombetti is an ingredient!)

    Only disappointment was that many of the apples (all Bramleys) had “bitter pit”. Possibly due to very heavy pruning in February when all the trees in the orchard were dealt with by an expert in fruit trees. The fisr proper attempt to control them since they were planted 45 years ago.

      1. I do use mine. But not really for cooking. I will give something a head start on defrosting. Start off baked potatoes to be finished in the oven. Reheat my morning Tea because it went cold while reading Nottle.

          7. I’d rather go without. Have you experienced Swedish coffee after they have let it stew for hours?

        1. I’ve never owned or wanted to own one. The only time I’ve used one was when I was working and wanted to warm up some lunch.

          2. I use mine for (a) heating coffee as my coffee machine doesn’t make it hot enough and (b) cooking kippers for breakfast. This avoids the house smelling of kippers all day and it makes a very good job of cooking the kippers.

          3. Hmm. Not that I like kippers much – but boil in bag ones don’t smell so much either. Can’t remember the last time I ate a kipper. What’s wrong with making coffee in a pot?

          4. Eat your kippers ! Jugged kippers may help reduce your risk of Alzheimer’s, other forms of dementia, heart disease and stroke.

          6. I only have proper, whole kippers, the boil in the bag stuff lacks flavour. I do make coffee in a pot, it’s just not hot enough.

          8. Yes, I did try that once when we had a power cut and I did a kipper ‘jugged’ on the (Gas) BBQ which had a gas ring on the side. OK but I prefer the microwave as the fish retains more of the oils.

          9. Some of the best scrambled eggs I’ve had were in, of all places, Hinchinbrook hospital. Really looked forward to them for breakfast.

        2. You heretic you. Scrambled eggs should be cooked on the lowest possible heat and stirred continuously. The result comes out creamy not the density of a squash ball. 🙂

          2. That’s how I like them – if you look away for a minute they’re overdone. Can’t stand scrambled egs you can cut or pick up on a fork.

          4. When I was a breakfast cook, we used the steam injector on the coffee machine to make scrambled egg! Really light and fluffy but made a bit of a mess of the nozzle!

          10. It’s OK! I’m a cafetière kinda gal now! You’re welcome for petit dejeuner next time you’re passing!

          20. ‘Oh no you’re not’ .

            I haven’t seen any youtube vids of you screaming and wetting yourself. 🙂

          21. Now that sounds like a good trick – but I don’t have a steam nozzle so I’ll stick to the popty-ping.

          22. Jennifer, I read your reply in Notifications and it came up as pop typing! I was confused to say the least!

          25. Why they couldn’t have done the same as with other imported words like “y cricet” and “ambwlans” I have no idea.

          26. OK, I’ll elucidate. Popty is the Welsh word for an oven. The popty – ping is the microwave oven – because (of course) it goes “ping”. Ready meals are often referred to hereabout as “ping” meals. I eat a lot of ping meals – but they are all my own batch cooked and frozen ones so I know what’s in them and there aren’t any e-numbers.

          29. I would be happy to enlighten you. (scared face)….Also the pan would only need to be wiped out after with some paper.

          30. Having now moved, I’m just getting used to life without a dishwasher. I must say, the latest iteration of Fairy Liquid seems to shift food deposits with a minimum of elbow grease.

        3. Sorry, Geoff. I’m a huge fan of the hob and spurtle. I’m sure there’s a smidgeon of Jock in me somewhere. 😉

          1. I use the spurtle to stir the bowl that I put in the popty-ping. I have 2 or 3 spurtles accumulated over the years; my mother gave me one when I left home to go to university and I acquired another in my “goodie bag” when my annual work conference was in Dundee in 2010.

          1. Do you eat it out of the saucepan? (That’s not a serious question, I’m quite sure that you don’t.)

            Soaked overnight and microwaved you do the whole job in one dish – easy peasy. As soon as you are catering for more than one that advantage disappears, but we singletons learn shortcuts because they make our lives easier and they make the cooking for one thing less of a chore. It’s very easy to stop eating proper food if you are cooking for one all the time.

          2. not being much of a single cooker, that is very true. Oh sod it, just boil an egg and add it to a salad is so much easier than doing any real cooking.

          3. But when you have been “widowed” for as long as I have you simply have to learn to cook proper meals or you would find yourself on a very unhealthy diet very quickly – it’s not like being alone for a few days when you can get away with a bit of lettuce at lunch-time and breakfast cereal and a banana for supper when it’s been too long a day at work…

            So I cook real food and get round the “single” bit by doing a lot of batch cooking (I love my slow cooker) and freezing a lot of single portions (you can always double up if you have got a visitor – but there’s no chance of that at the moment). The only thing I hardly ever cook is a roast dinner – roast dinner for one just doesn’t really work (either physically or emotionally). All those pots and roasting tins – and one plate… it’s not a good feeling. So I really do only cook a roast if I’m feeding either family or friends.

          1. I hate to admit it, but Beeboid recipes are usually good.
            Once I’ve converted their bloody foreign measurements.

      3. A microwave oven (a ‘microwave’ is an invisible piece of radiation) is useful for defrosting frozen food quickly and warming up leftovers and soups. It is not — in my humble opinion — a viable method of cooking food!

        2. It is, in fact, a viable method for cooking a variety of foods; single portions of steamed veg and steamed rice would be my most common cooking tasks. My hob is slow and my veg are steamed in the popty-ping in less time than it takes to heat the ring for a pan. I never cook rice for one any other way (but I wouldn’t use it to cook rice for, say, 4 people). I wouldn’t use it to try to cook an unbeaten egg either but you can make excellent scrambled eggs… the trick is to use just 20 second bursts; and you don’t have an eggy pan to wash afterwards. Again if cooking eggs for more than one I’d probably do it on the stove, but I’ve got one portion down to a fine art (usually for Sunday lunch).

          But I agree that it comes into its own when re-heating any sort of batch cooked and frozen portions of soups, stews etc. I would be very unhappy if I had to live without one nowadays.

    4. I crack an egg into a small clingfilm pocket & lower that into simmering water for X minutes. Saves mess & stress.

      1. I use a silicone poach-pod. The results are good, as long as you don’t leave them in too long. I know that the purists don’t approve – but I’m not poaching eggs for them 😉

    6. Break egg into a mug/bowl, cover with water then put in microwave for 30/40 seconds and check the egg. Should be opaque but may need another 20 seconds.

        1. That is a stock photo. Not Plum’s disaster that she had to scrape off the inside of the Micro.

    10. Line a ramekin with cling film, put a few drops of white wine vinegar in then the egg. Tie the cling film to form a small sack and drop into a pan of boiling water for a short while.

      1. Do you have to drop the ramekin in as well, or just the egg-filled clingfilm? Asking for a friend 🙂

          1. I see; he who sups with the Devil should use a long spoon, apparently 🙂 I invested in a special pan to do poached eggs (because I am a lousy cook). I haven’t had the opportunity to use it yet.

          3. I quite like boiled eggs for tea (with soldiers). Doesn’t strain my culinary talents too much 🙂

          4. Just what i had for lunch today. I like the bring to the boil and switch off way of cooking them. They still come out just right if your timings are okay. Also the protein doesn’t overcook and make them difficult to digest.

      2. That’s not a long way away from how I boil ham. I seal the ham inside a polythene bag and then boil the bag in water. That way none of the juices that come from the ham are lost in the water and the ham effectively boils in its own stock. That delicious stock is then used to flavour a pea and ham soup (or pease pudding).

        1. I boil ham straight in the water, no bag. The water then becomes a dilute ‘ham stock’ which I reduce and use for a future scallop risotto.

  84. Thought for the day.

    Carrying on from the concept of an all-powerful super-computer using articial intelligence:

    God is a supercomputer. He/she/it created the Universe knowing that there would be a planet that would eventually produce a species that itself would eventually create computers and artificial intelligence which would lead to the super-computer that is God.

    Discuss the circular argument.

    2. Time is not linear it is circular. The proof of this is we get the same rubbish government every time no matter who wins the election.

    1. Evening Sue – A very powerful and critical letter to Michael Gove. I agree with everything the lady said in the letter.

  88. I am off. Just completed a huge print run for the MR. It is the least I can do as she is still working – and I am idle!

    Glass in hand. Fireworks appear to be happening in the distance – thank God we live far away from people with children.

    A demain – and Trump that!

          3. The Germans are not fond of kidneys as we know them. They soak them overnight in buttermilk to remove all the impurities (& flavour). When discussing this with my German squash partner, I said, “so the next day, you throw away the kidneys & drink the buttermilk.” He was not amused.

          5. They didn’t.

            I do find Henning Weng amusing though. I suppose there had to be at least one German with a sense of humour.

        1. I use to enjoy liver and bacon and steak and kidney pies…..but obviously now in the contests of sausages, but I’ve never sought to or knowingly eaten offal for years. It might have been the Tripe i once tried.

          3. As long as the rest of your family aren’t put off their food by the smell then do it anyway.

          4. When I used to cook lights for the Beagle (no, not Bill – the Beagle I used to dogsit for), I used to put a spoonful of Marmite in the pot. It got rid of the foul smell (and Lucy, the Beagle, loved it).

          5. My mother gave me tripe as a small child, probably around 1954-ish. It was reminiscent of an off white flannel blanket, liberally doused in vinegar. She only tried it once with me – I almost choked on it, the first mouthful, I scared her stiff. Having said that, I had it many years later cut up into small strips as a ‘tripe lyonnaise’, a delicious dish and unrecognisable as the aforementioned tripe.

          6. Oh don’t,….i know it was yesterday but it still makes me feel ill just to read about it. It had to be ‘bleached’ before it was white, can you imagine…..

        2. I have some ox cheek in the freezer. Saving it for when chums who appreciate such food come for a meal.

          2. Whenever I visited Geneva I always asked for brains – delicious, but that was before mad cow disease.

          2. I was looking at the Majestic website last evening and found an Australian shiraz priced at £ 87.50 a bottle.
            Their most expensive is from Sicily at 400.00 quid a bottle.

          4. When we lived in QLD i ask my wife what are we having for dinner tonight ? Spag Bol, we didn’t drink much wine then, but i called into a drive through bottle shop on the way home from work and picked out a bottle of red by a wine maker called Redman the wine was called Rouge Homme. My sister is/ was along term member of the wine society in Stevenage. She told me that once in a blind tasting, it came out on top. I paid 2 dollars, the same wine is around 10 – 15 pounds a bottle now. Coonawarra shiraz.

          5. I am always pleased by the quality of the “clean skin” wines in Oz.

            Every now and then one gets an absolute stunner, but even the average ones are great value for money

          6. Last time we were over 5 years ago this time of year. We Visited Margaret River vineyards. And later Yarra valley.

          9. We came across a b&b in the hunter valley where they had their own private nine hole golf course. That and surrounded by vineyards – bliss.

          11. We were hoping for October November home before it get too hot. Probably staying in Singapore for a few days in both directions.

          12. Last time I was in Oz was for The Race That Stops A Nation (first Tuesday in November). Media Puzzle won and I backed it.

          13. Damien Oliver 2002 😉
            We were in Perth 5 years ago when the race was on, having fun at the Swan Yacht club, a good time was had by all.

          14. Was utterly discombobulated by my first visit to Oz (WA), with a two lane drive-through bottle-o. Warehouse-sized, it was, and so many wines you never head of… how to choose, apart from start at the left and work your way across…? Bliss!

          16. Just finishing the final glass of a bottle of Laithwaites Black Stump. Always robust and delicious.

          17. Good drop.
            We use to live ( Christies beach) about mile from McLaren Vale in South Australia.
            The wineries have exploded in size since were were last there. There are now thousands of huge steel vats.

          20. Absolutely but it’s really good mass produced wine. I think Laithwaites have been good at forging long term relationships with great smaller wine producers who, then, don’t have all the marketing costs if the big brands.

          21. I’ll give them a look tmz. I need to order some for Christmas.
            I use to pop along to one of the wineries on my Dirt Bike take a few plastic bottles and you could then buy new wine for 50 cents a litre, no worries mate.

          22. You should hear our local winemakers go on about how unfair it is that these wine factories to sell decent plonk for so little.

          23. You can get a decent Barolo or Sangiovese for £40. I have one of each laying down for Christmas.

          24. Two lovey drops. I just love red wine, probably a tad too much, but two glasses each evening sunshine in every bottle.

            Red wine and resveratrol: Good for your heart?
            Resveratrol might be a key ingredient that makes red wine heart healthy. Learn the facts — and hype — about red wine and how it affects your heart.

            Red wine, in moderation, has long been thought of as heart healthy. The alcohol and certain substances in red wine called antioxidants may help prevent coronary artery disease, the condition that leads to heart attacks.

          25. My first go at a Sangiovese was on holiday in Malta. I was served a Brunello di Montalcino with great theatrics. Took him about 10 minutes. With all this going on i noticed that several other diners began watching the show. I know it was a bit over the top but it did feel special.

            And yes it is good for you.

    2. just leave them there then.
      They will want to move into the barracks when it gets cold – but by then another bus load of scrounge will have arrived and been accommodated.

  90. It’s probably my imagination, but can anyone else hear the delight in the voices of the BBC reporters every time they suggest that Biden has won?

    1. It’s keeps the cleaners in a job at the bbc.
      Floor mops will never make the news but are always on standby.

    2. They went very quiet when the forecast surge in favour of Biden turned out to be a veritable dribble and there was a chance that Donald just might gain the upper hand. The smiles and cheery voices returned when they realised that the million of votes kept in readiness for such an occasion began to be included in the late returns. Still a hint of worry though as the Trumpet is threatening to start a legal battle over the vote rigging.

    3. It is not your imagination. I listened to Naughtie, Sopel, Robinson and Kearney on Toady this morning. All delighted and creaming their pants at the thought of a Biden presidency.

      2. The fact that their man was at ‘Democrat HQ’ says it all.

        No mention of the fascist Left smashing things up.

        1. Same with an article by Deedes in the daily mail. Dissing Trump completely and not mentioning Biden introducing his grand daughter as his dead son. And he confused her name with her cousin when he eventually woke up.

    4. the BBC are worse than cnn, at least they are being cautious about declaring a winner.

      Not that they aren’t biased, they are trying to be cleaner than the other side (for now).

    6. I doubt it is your imagination. Watch them if it turns out to be Trump. They will all look as if they have been to a funeral.

  91. Did any of you see the BBC news this evening ?
    There was yet another report from St Albans tonight, not quite sure what it was about, but right at the end two lovely people i know quite well featured, Mike and Sylvia Smith. The were interviewed in their back garden and they live at the end of our road. 😍🤩

    1. I saw they were in St Albans.; but I wasn’t paying much attention – good for your friends!

    1. Don’t listen to them, it wasn’t the butler. That book is missing the last three pages. The woman with the big……… aaargh!

    2. OK I’m officially creeped out. I was reminded of Rosemary & Fred West a few minutes ago, I had just looked up some stuff about them. Then I click over to NTTL and first thing I see is this video, the song being allegedly about them (the Wests).

      1. You have my apology. Don’t want to give anyone bad thoughts but bad things happen all the time. As they continue to do so.

          1. Syncronisation i can accept given the gene pool is so limited. Coincidence happens all the time.

  95. I’m popping along now, had a busy and tiring day getting the garden tidy, i even managed to cut the grass.
    Copyalayders.

  96. I have spent a productive afternoon mowing the lawn – probably for the last time this year

    Saw this when I got back to my computer:

    DT Story

    Live Travel latest news: Fines for anyone who leaves England ‘without reasonable excuse’ from today

    So Britain has now become a prison.

    Hoodagesstit?

    1. We’re all under house arrest. For no crime. Locked up by criminals and fraudsters. None of them will ever get my vote again.

    2. Moving house? You are allowed to leave home to view a residential property. Presumably, this could be one overseas…
      You can leave home to shop, of course, and there is no rule on how far you can go. Does Barcelona’s Mercado de La Boqueria seem reasonable?
      Exercise is fine, too, and there are no time limits. A seven-night cycling holiday in the Alps? Now don’t be silly.
      You can go out to attend a place of worship, be it the local Methodist church or – presumably – St Peter’s Basilica.
      There’s an exemption for those providing charitable services. Now I’ve been meaning to volunteer at that cat sanctuary in Kefalonia for years…
      You can leave home for the purpose of “education of training”. How about training to be a sommelier in Chianti?
      A wedding is another acceptable reason to be out and about. We presume that includes a last-minute ceremony on a beach in St Lucia?
      The legislation also seems to permit a person with no fixed abode to go on holiday (it says a homeless person is committing no offence by not being at home).

  98. While Rastus was mowing the lawn I took myself off for a walk in the glorious sunshine. For once, I took my camera!

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6d69652a40e3e0fc0897987d087bedb165d89dd5aef45d8d3d0e0d0e4fe294bb.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/87b19660a21a8a833bbbac2c093b817b5cef474604b7b99527c99a89148fcf3b.jpg

    And, when I came home, I saw this:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/672bfc56442ea7d19a831d0a011a759d4eeab6ee670ef9c30910dccf598c2dfb.jpg

    5. The bloke on the mower looks just like one of my French friends – you haven’t moved to Normandy, have you? 🙂

          1. Don’t, Conwy – that bring back memories of the ghastly week when we left Laure……unmitigated hell on wheels.

  99. Afternoon, all. My neighbour could have written the headline; he said exactly the same when we met this morning out walking our dogs. Still, Hand on cock says you can go abroad to top yourself ( https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2020/11/05/hancock-people-can-travel-abroad-for-assisted-dying-purposes-during-lockdown/ ) so that’s alright. On a better note, I went shopping today and wore my “I am exempt” badge for the first time. No hassle and I didn’t feel suicidal after going into two shops. There’s a result. I may even go shopping again in a couple of days. Of course, town was like a ghost town; most of the shops are closed and there weren’t many people about.

      1. I printed mine off from the government website and put the result into a clear plastic name holder which will clip on my lapel. I’ve had enough of feeling unwell after shopping wearing a mask. Only one woman looked at me askance, but I suppose it was fair enough; I’d bought a mop and I nearly took her out with the handle 🙂

    2. Good for you, Conway. It gets easier every time you go without it. Have your stock phrases ready just in case. Had it not been for the example and support of people on here I wouldn’t have been able to do this. We went to the vet’s today, both of us maskless. We have to wait in a flimsy gazebo alongside the surgery. It was for an 8.30 appt and it was freezingly cold, the sort of cold that really clings to you. Anyway, the vet didn’t bat an eyelid about our not wearing masks.

      Edit: I decided that the time had come to discard the mask when I had a panic attack (couldn’t breathe) in the supermarket ten days ago and fell over a stand. I have not had hassle from anyone yet.

      1. Good for you pm, but so sorry to hear what went before. It really has become a most unpleasant chore and the thought of going to more than 2 shops is a no-no!

          1. Queueing outside in the sunshine was bad enough, but stifling behind a mask killed it off entirely.

      2. It was just SO liberating! I am normally a wreck after I’ve been to two shops, but today I felt fine. I hope there was a good outcome from the visit to the vets? When I took my dog, I waited in the car while they took him indoors for his examination and then they brought him back, I put him in the car then paid the bill and collected the medicine via an open window.

        1. I know. I felt normal again. Government should not be messing about with that most basic of our rights and needs to survival – that to breathe freely. Poppie was fine at the vet, she needed a blood test to check on her Cushing’s, she has had to have her dose of Vetoryl increased at the start of this month. So we await the results. This may be some time. There is a country-wide shortage at this tine for the ingredient required for checking the cortisol level.

          The vet is on the main road through Biggleswade – parking is ordinary town type parking on the opposite side of the road. We phone on arrival and we are told to make our way to the ‘marquee’ which is alongside the vet surgery down an alleyway – this means the vet is not having to cross through the traffic many times a day to reach the patient – and we can have a quick consultation in the gazebo without the roar of traffic disturbing the conversation. He did offer to bring our little patient out to us this time if we wished to wait in the car – having made our way to the plastic gazebo (there are two side by side with a couple of chairs in each) he was a long time in coming to collect her and we were starting to feel very cold.

      3. Stock phrases like, “I don’t have to tell you my medical history; suffice it to say I tick the exemption boxes”? 🙂

    1. Good night, Conners. And everyone else still on this site. Sleep well and enjoy the rest of the day when you awake.

  104. Politicans are paid liars, Traitors, the enemy within. Doctors are liars, and their “medical mistakes” get buried. Ask Dr Semmelweis about hand washing, by the way the had him committed for that.

    In the meantime some interesting historical studies.

    read Neil Orr’s study, published in 1981 in the Annals of the Royal College of Surgeons of England.

    Dr. Orr was a surgeon in the Severalls Surgical Unit in Colchester. And for six months, from March through August 1980, the surgeons and staff in that unit decided to see what would happen if they did not wear masks during surgeries.

    They wore no masks for six months, and compared the rate of surgical wound infections from March through August 1980 with the rate of wound infections from March through August of the previous four years.

    And they discovered, to their amazement, that when nobody wore masks during surgeries, the rate of wound infections was less than half what it was when everyone wore masks.

    Their conclusion: “It would appear that minimum contamination can best be achieved by not wearing a mask at all” and that wearing a mask during surgery “is a standard procedure that could be abandoned.”

    I was so amazed that I scoured the medical literature, sure that this was a fluke and that newer studies must show the utility of masks in preventing the spread of disease.

    But to my surprise the medical literature for the past forty-five years has been consistent: masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease and, if anything, are unsanitary objects that themselves spread bacteria and viruses.

    Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.”
    Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.”
    Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002.
    In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%.
    A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.”
    Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.”
    Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn.
    Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.”
    Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden.
    Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group.
    Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same.
    Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.”
    Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.”
    Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination”

  105. Repost because i am spam???
    Politicans are paid liars, Traitors, the enemy within. Doctors are liars, and their “medical mistakes” get buried. Ask Dr Semmelweis about hand washing, by the way the had him committed for that.

    In the meantime some interesting historical studies.

    read Neil Orr’s study, published in 1981 in the Annals of the Royal College of Surgeons of England.

    Dr. Orr was a surgeon in the Severalls Surgical Unit in Colchester. And for six months, from March through August 1980, the surgeons and staff in that unit decided to see what would happen if they did not wear masks during surgeries.

    They wore no masks for six months, and compared the rate of surgical wound infections from March through August 1980 with the rate of wound infections from March through August of the previous four years.

    And they discovered, to their amazement, that when nobody wore masks during surgeries, the rate of wound infections was less than half what it was when everyone wore masks.

    Their conclusion: “It would appear that minimum contamination can best be achieved by not wearing a mask at all” and that wearing a mask during surgery “is a standard procedure that could be abandoned.”

    1. Part II since I am spam, btw gross food

      Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.”
      Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.”
      Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002.
      In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%.
      A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.”
      Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.”

          2. Good morning, J.

            If they are ‘private’
            I give them a day or so
            before I ‘approve’ them.

        2. I tried to post something and it was sent to spam. So i reposted it. I have posted here before, not often.

          1. Ian, you, hopefully,
            will have no further problems;
            we always welcome new posters.
            … Well most new posters!! :-))

    2. I find it amusing that the PTB feel the need to tell people to hum ‘happy birthday to you’ twice, to make sure you have washed your hands properly.

      Wash your hands thoroughly with a hand sanitiser and then look at them under ultraviolet.

      1. But use the same mask all day while interacting with pts and doing minimally invasive procedures

Comments are closed.