Friday 17 November: A bold move on inheritance tax could mark the start of a Tory fightback

Posted on by Geoff Graham

An unofficial place to discuss the Telegraph letters, established when the DT website turned off its commenting facility (now reinstated, but we prefer ours),
Intelligent, polite, good-humoured debate is welcome, whether on or off topic. Differing opinions are encouraged, but rudeness or personal attacks on other posters will not be tolerated. Posts which – in the opinion of the moderators – make this a less than cordial environment, are likely to be removed, without prior warning.  Persistent offenders will be banned.

Today’s letters (visible only to DT subscribers) are here.

557 thoughts on “Friday 17 November: A bold move on inheritance tax could mark the start of a Tory fightback”

  3. Good morrow, Gentlefolk. today’s story
    The Adjutant
    In the great days of the British Empire a new commanding officer was sent to a remote African bush outpost to relieve the retiring colonel.

    After welcoming his replacement and showing the usual courtesies, gin and tonic, cucumber sandwiches etc., decreed by protocol, the retiring colonel said, “You must meet my Adjutant, Captain Smithers. He’s my right-hand man and is really the strength of this entire post. His talent and energy is simply boundless

    Captain Smithers was summoned and introduced to the new CO, who was surprised to meet a hunchback, one-eyed, toothless, hairless, scabbed and pockmarked specimen of humanity, a particularly unattractive man less than three feet tall.
    “Smithers, old man, tell your new CO about yourself”.
    “Well, sir, I graduated with honours from Sandhurst, joined the regiment and won the Military Cross and Bar after three expeditions behind enemy lines.

    I’ve represented Great Britain in equestrian events and won a Silver Medal in the middleweight boxing division of the Olympics. I have researched the history of…..”

    At which point the colonel interrupted, “Yes, yes, never mind that Smithers, he can find all that in your file. Tell him about the day you told the witch doctor to fuck off.

    1. Very good, Sir Jasper. And to the rest of my chums, I now seem able to post and see others’ posts in the normal way.

          1. Must be a Scottish thing. Hours roll over albeit now shewing 21:09 (Friday)real time 09:09 (Saturday).
            .
            I’ll see what happens at 23:59.

    1. I didn’t see it yesterday, Sir Jasper, so thanks for posting it today. It’s very funny and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

  8. … I wished you all a Good Morning, chums. But then my greetings disappeared. So I repeated the greeting, only for the computer to tell me that I had already posted that. So I had to change my post to three dots. So now I am hoping that my greeting WILL be allowed. Sometimes I think it might be better to go back to bed and start again a couple of hours later! Lol.

  9. A bold move on inheritance tax could mark the start of a Tory fightback

    Alas, just a bit late for a lot of people

  13. Good grief, today’s site now asks me to “Be the first to comment” and there is nothing else to see. So I’m now off and will see how things stand later in the day. At least the weather forecast today is for sun. Enjoy your day, chums.

  15. 07:34 GMT: Disqus shows 17 comments on the first screen, nothing here just now, yet a momnet ago I read Bob’s comment saying “Disqus playing up again”, so there are/were some comments.
    Ho hum.
    Good morning, all. TGIF and POETS day… ;-))

    1. Same for me, Paul. Cannot see any previous posts. Can someone give Disqus a good shake-up. tally shews 0 comments

      2. See new posts works, but refresh and they all vanish again.
        I’m going down the garden to eat worms…

  20. That is weird – no comments showing but I’m not alone!! Refresh and reload make no difference.

  22. Odd goings on? Geoff’s new page comment has disappeared from Thursday’s page along with Araminta’s comment that her access was limited this morning.
    No posts on Friday’s page until I clicked on comment and then Rose and Belle appeared simultaneously.

  27. Is anyone else going on Disqus to find “Be the first to comment” instead of the comments of others below the line?

    1. Yes – several of us I think. I have tried refresh, reload and a different browser, but no joy!

      1. My script filter is coming up with ‘privacymanager.io’, which is a tracker that might be interfering with Disqus, and perhaps put there maliciously, since I have been quite controversial over the situation in Gaza.

    2. I was denied access to it, and was presented with a fresh page, which started off this thread. I have no idea where the original thread under Geoff’s post has gone. I cannot get through to comments on The Spectator either. It has all happened since I got a spoof voicemail on my mobile purporting to be from the Metropolitan Police.

  33. Good morning anyone who is there. 08:30 and Disqusting telling me there are no comments!
    For anyone who might be reading this, it’s a bright start with a tad under 0°C outside.

  34. See new posts brought up 26+ comments, but I refreshed to get them in chronological order, and they all vanished again.
    🙁

  36. If anyone can read this will they give an uptick as currently any comment post Sir Jasper’s last comment 8 hours ago has disappeared after a refresh. Last time I looked I could see upticks on CW’s site.

      1. Seeing upticks and comments from Sue Mac, BoB and Oberst. Comments total still reads zero.

    3. Certainly weird things goings on, I can see my post if I click on my alerts but nothing if I look direct. Off out for the day, Music Museum in Brentford, so will leave it to sort itself out.

  37. Interesting.
    Just refreshed my standby Disqusting account on another browser and all the comments below have vannished.

  38. Changing inheritance tax is edge fiddling. I doubt it would make any difference to anyone.

    Besides, we all know how this works. They give tuppence with one hand an rob a fiver with the other.

    1. 378860+ up ticks,

      O2O,

      Decent peoples would be well advised to listen before voting, if agreeing with the link above, download & post.

    2. KC III couldn’t care less about his Coronation Oath. His mother was selective in the parts of her Oath that she adhered to – there is really no point in swearing it in the first place: it is complete farce, and the monarchy treats our rights with contempt. It is neither impartial nor non-political.

      Just try to enforce our Magna Carta rights through the Courts – it will get nowhere.

      1. P.S. Charlie won’t even see the letter – even if he did, his rather limited intelligence would never be able to read such a long missive to the end.

      2. 378860+ up ticks,

        Morning HL,

        People power if united can, according to the non threatening / polite letter
        have the power to withhold taxes
        etc,etc and refuse to be victims within our own ( at this moment) country.

        Pointing this out to charlie three in letter form would not go amiss.

        1. KC III will not give a jot. He won’t even see the letter let alone bother to read it. Withholding tax will simply end in selective prosecutions – all against decent taxpayers, not against the scroungers and gimmiegrants.

          1. 378860+ up ticks,

            HL
            I really don’t give a damn whether he reads it or not, as long as a multitude of patriotic peoples send it, if peoples really think the country at this moment is worth the fee, recorded delivery.

          3. 378860+ up ticks,

            HL
            Ours will be downloaded and sent today.

            Every little helps as the old lady said when she peed in the Medway.

    3. KC III couldn’t care less about his Coronation Oath. His mother was selective in the parts of her Oath that she adhered to – there is really no point in swearing it in the first place: it is complete farce, and the monarchy treats our rights with contempt. It is neither impartial nor non-political.

      Just try to enforce our Magna Carta rights through the Courts – it will get nowhere.

      1. 378860+ up ticks,

        Morning W,
        It is in point of fact a well meant warning only a fool would deny the presser is building to unacceptable levels.

  40. Good Moaning.
    I seem to be having problems with Disqus/NOTTL this morning.

    Maybe this character has turned his attention to the site. Sorry, photo does not register.

    Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/16/bear-mauls-eco-activist-trying-to-prove-logging-emptied-den/

    “Caught on camera: moment bear emerges from den to maul eco-activist

    German airlifted to hospital in serious condition after attack while he was trying to prove the animal’s lair was abandoned due to logging

    16 November 2023 • 8:47pm

    The disturbed bear emerges and chases campaigner trying to prevent logging in the Bieszczady Mountains

    A bear in Poland’s Carpathian Mountains has mauled an eco-activist who was trying to prove the animal’s lair was abandoned due to logging.

    The German was airlifted to hospital following the attack and was said to be in a serious but stable condition.

    He had travelled to the bear’s den alongside another activist from the Wild Carpathians Initiative to check if the area had been affected by logging.

    The pair had expected the lair to be empty but the animal pursued them through the woods. The activist stumbled and fell before being mauled.

    Footage of the bear emerging to attack was captured by a camera set up to monitor the lair. It was shared online by Michał Gzowski, a spokesman for the Polish forestry service, who described the incident as an “irony of fate”.

    “Pseudo-ecologists were attacking foresters, mountain rescue and policemen, and now these people are saving their lives,” he said.

    “Will there be a Darwin Award?” Mr Gzowski added, referring to a tongue-in-cheek prize for people who die in unwise way. “

  43. 38 Degrees Logo ​
    Dear Maggie,

    This is cruel. First they went after homeless people’s tents – now they’re targeting the sick. Reports say the Government is planning a change to benefits that would force hundreds of thousands of people to find work despite suffering from a range of physical and mental health conditions, and waiting for operations and other treatment. [1]

    Maggie, this might not affect you right now, but any of us could fall ill at any time – and with the current NHS crisis this may mean having to wait months for treatment. These changes could force us to work no matter how unwell we are.

    The good news is that these plans aren’t set in stone, which means we have a chance to stop them. [2] Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has been under pressure this week following more chaos within his government. [3] Right now could be the perfect time to urge him to drop the plans, as he’ll want to avoid more bad headlines following the turmoil of the last few days.

    We need to speak out now, before they go any further. A huge petition signed by hundreds of thousands of people from across the UK could be enough to convince the Government to do the right thing and scrap these plans for good – rather than risk another political fire.

    So, Maggie, can you sign the petition asking the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to scrap these cruel plans now?

    Wotszat?

        1. Good morning, TB,

          You can officially sever ties with them on their website, and I think request no further emails. It worked for me – I don’t get anything from them any more.

  44. Good morning all,

    Bright start at the McPhee’s, nice day in prospect. Wind Westerley, 5℃≫8℃ so staying cool. Off to Chichester today.

    Two letters chime with me this morning:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4888810201a25d98266e302653104582af9f568a572c1d6ce1eefee6ea614c6c.png

    Steve Siddall is spot on. Never mind the rate, Hunt, get rid of it altogether or raise the threshold so that the overwhelming majority of the estates of the departed are taken out of the ‘death tax’ regime altogether. How about £2 million? Why not £5 million?

    As for Stamp Duty , Rosemary Waddingham is surely being a little too restrained. This is a straight forward theft of people’s equity in their homes. Payable on completion of a purchase, the money to meet it comes out of the sale of any previously owned property. Never mind any home improvements made – kitchens, bathrooms updated, windows replaced, weather-boards and soffits, roofs &c or the amount of mortgage interest paid, all out of already-taxed income. Never mind all that; you have made an unearned gain, you nasty home-owner, you must pay more tax in the interests of something called ‘fairness’. Never mind that the mere act of selling a home and buying a new one costs a substantial amount of money when everything is added up, the state must have its ‘cut’. Not many people except the elderly sell a house to buy a cheaper one so the cost of the transaction, including the stamp duty, is usually met by taking out a bigger mortgage. Thus the Stamp Duty is paid by borrowing more. People borrow to pay the tax.

    No, I don’t think this will change anything for this hapless shower in government. Who can forget migration, the scamdemic, government-created inflation or net zero stupidity? Nor can anyone forget that the current levels of punishing Stamp Duty were created by Gordon Brown and the so–called conservative government has done nothing in 13 years, nothing, to get rid of them.

    1. State already has several cuts: Income tax, VAT payable at all stages of a sale & purchase transaction, let alone the improvements, upgrades etc.

    2. I was just about to comment to that effect! Where is everyone? Good morning Phizzee; everyone…. where are you??

        1. I left Nttl to check Twitter, comments were appearing and half an hour later – zilch! They’ve all gone.

    2. Yes, there are. Disqus failure to show comments unless you “Show new comments”, then the new ones appear. Refresh, and they all vanish again… 🙁

  47. Morning all 🙂😊
    What’s going on today gone 9 and no comments. Have you all been arrested for having an opinion?
    Lovely sunny start. But rain later.

  48. https://twitter.com/BeaumontDMD/status/1725243625347424362

    Darren Dixon
    @BeaumontDMD
    ·
    21h
    Activists on the roof of defence firm Leonardo in Southampton this morning.
    They are trying to shut down the site, due to the company’s alleged dealings with Israel

    How much longer are we going to stand by and accept this shit?

    Protestors from Palestine Action scaled the roof of defence firm Leonardo UK in Southampton
    They say this is due to the firm’s sale of weapons to Israel in the Gaza war
    They put up a Palestinian flag and used a sledgehammer to damage the roof of the Millbrook factory
    Police were called out and were seen arresting three people https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/23927136.palestine-action-activists-climb-southampton-leonardo-uk-defence-firm-roof/

    1. As M said in the bond film “Take the shot” that’s when 007 fell off the roof of a train.

    1. Morning, Araminta, something very strange is occurring this morning. This is the first post I‘ve seen other than my own.

  51. 09.06. No comments? Is anybody there? Is Geoff OK, having a lie-in? Do hope all is well. But where are the rest of you?

    Good morning by the way.

    1. I’m sure that I saw Geoff’s usual new page comment early on but then it, along with others, disappeared on refresh.

  52. Good morrow, Gentlefolk. today’s story (I thought it worth repeating in case you cannot see the original)

    The Adjutant
    In the great days of the British Empire a new commanding officer was sent to a remote African bush outpost to relieve the retiring colonel.

    After welcoming his replacement and showing the usual courtesies, gin and tonic, cucumber sandwiches etc., decreed by protocol, the retiring colonel said, “You must meet my Adjutant, Captain Smithers. He’s my right-hand man and is really the strength of this entire post. His talent and energy is simply boundless

    Captain Smithers was summoned and introduced to the new CO, who was surprised to meet a hunchback, one-eyed, toothless, hairless, scabbed and pockmarked specimen of humanity, a particularly unattractive man less than three feet tall.
    “Smithers, old man, tell your new CO about yourself”.
    “Well, sir, I graduated with honours from Sandhurst, joined the regiment and won the Military Cross and Bar after three expeditions behind enemy lines.

    I’ve represented Great Britain in equestrian events and won a Silver Medal in the middleweight boxing division of the Olympics. I have researched the history of…..”

    At which point the colonel interrupted, “Yes, yes, never mind that Smithers, he can find all that in your file. Tell him about the day you told the witch doctor to fuck off.

  54. Britain will back Ukraine for as long as it takes, Cameron tells Zelensky. 17 November 2023.

    He was appointed Foreign Secretary on Monday in a surprise move by Rishi Sunak, following a reshuffle of his Cabinet.
    The Prime Minister called on Lord Cameron’s experience on the world stage to manage Britain’s response to the Russian invasion and the war between Israel and Hamas.

    Lord Cameron oversaw the UK’s response to several conflicts during his time in No 10, including the toppling of Colonel Gaddafi in Libya and the fight against the Islamic State terror group in Syria.

    I don’t know how well informed Zelensky is but the last paragraph gives pause for thought. Cameron was indeed involved (he was actually one of the instigators) in the toppling of Gaddafi and the destruction of Libya. Even the nationwide irrigation system was demolished along with the factory that made the pipes so it could not be repaired. The ordinary people of Libya, who were almost certainly the most prosperous in Africa up to this time, are now reduced to cowering in their homes. The country itself is ruled by gangsters and is a Central African Refugee Highway to Europe. Islamic State is of course a CIA/Mi6 invention designed to overthrow Syria’s Bashar al-Assad. Fortunately Putin intervened to save both Syria, and by doing so, ourselves, from their ministrations.

    One suspects that Ukraine in either victory or defeat will fare little better. The country’s general population dispersed, a whole generation of young men sacrificed to no purpose. Totally indebted. Corrupt. Such things are the price of the US Hegemony.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/16/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-cameron-putin/

    1. Is the idiot Cameron offering a bottomless pit of cash and/or expensive munitions to Zelensky?

      1. I blame all the bloody advertising.
        I read earlier about a new book out about Edgware and area. Might be interesting.

    1. Nor me. I made a comment at 09.06 but that’s disappeared. There were 2 comments after that but they’ve vanished too. GCHQ?

    2. The page I am on at the moment says 11 comments only and I can see them – however if I swap to Best or Newest they will almost certainly disappear, based on recent experience, and I’ll be back to “Be the first to comment”

      1. Up to 25 comments on this particular version of Friday’s page which seems OK until it refreshes? Very odd! While I can see comments here, the box at the top of the page that normally says “Join the discussion” now says “Start the discussion”.

  64. PLEASE NOTE: There appears to be a problem with Disqus at the moment – posts are disappearing from view. It’s outside our control, so I suppose all we can do is wait…

    Thanks for that.
    Patience is a virtue.

    1. Chance would be a fine thing. Except that a coup by anyone already in Westminster would be worthless…

  69. Right I’m off to the Supermarket. If it’s been taken over by al Qaeda don’t wait up for me!

  70. Post just arrived.
    2 x cheques from ERNIE to pay in and my retinopathy check has come back clear, so that’s me ok for another year.

    The DT’s off with the Back-@-Home-Graduate-son to Dr. Daughter’s for the weekend and I’m now off to Stoke for the day to see step-son.
    TTFN all.

    3. ERNIE pays direct to my bank account.
      Good that your check came back clear – I have one every 2 years now, maybe Scottish NHS is different

  71. Blue sky here , the Frome river meadows are flooded all the way down to Wareham, very pretty, lots of swans and geese.

    Moh playing golf .. he is wearing his waterproof trousers . !!!

    1. Wow! A comment that I can see! I’m quite bereft at the lack of conversation this morning. 😕 I hope Disqus fix this problem soon.

  75. Keir Starmer faces more Labour resignations over Gaza bloodshed as leader is warned ‘we can’t lie in bed with the Tories’ over war and MPs face protests outside their offices in areas with large Muslim populations

    My emphasis.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12761229/Keir-Starmer-faces-Labour-resignations-Gaza-bloodshed.html

    So being different from the Tories is more important than protesting the Muslim intimidation?

    Well Blair and all his disciples, this is merely a taste of things to come.

    1. Labour weren’t bothered about being different from the Tories during the ‘covid’ years. The whole bunch of them went along with all their proposals without a murmur.

  76. An excellent piece from Dalrymple
    https://www.takimag.com/article/migration-not-asylum/

    But the Supreme Court’s decision is instructive of the state of mind of the ruling elite, not only in Britain but in much of the Western world. The reason given for its ruling was that the safety of the deportees to Rwanda could not be guaranteed, in the sense that they might be returned from the country from which they had fled, or at least from which they had emigrated. It is illegal under international law to return asylum-seekers to their countries of origin before their claims to asylum have been properly heard and investigated, or even to put them at risk of such return. No doubt in some narrow sense, then, the judges were right: They have to interpret the law as it is, not as it ought to be, and (from experience of giving testimony in British courts) I have a high regard for the intellectual ability of British judges.

    “Their lives would not be put at risk through political persecution in France, and in essence they arrive in Britain not through necessity, but by choice.”
    Yet the judgment is completely disconnected from social reality in a wider sense. The first and most important disconnection is that the vast majority of the alleged asylum-seekers are in no sense refugees at all when they arrive. They arrive from countries such as France, and it is an insult to such countries to suggest that they would not be safe to remain in them.

    1. How long will your post stay up?

      During this disruption will posts appear one by one and then disappear?

  77. Disqus thinks there aren’t more than the usual volume of reports that it isn’t working. Perhaps we all need to report the problem. I had a look on TCW and there weren’t any comments there either. Likewise Breitbart.

    1. Morning, Sue. I’m not aware of any official means of reporting problems to Disqus. There’s a channel “Discuss Disqus” which is run by volunteer mods, and they claim to have reported it to Disqus. Past experience suggests that Friday issues are unlikely to be addressed before Monday. Meanwhile, this is what “no more than the usual volume of reports” looks like:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5a16955208251081d77abedef2ebbc434600edbf49944b15e8d82ace641c19b2.png

      1. Hallo Geoff – I’m reading this and replying on the Mod page – I’ve got things to do this morning so I just hope we can come back later on. I know it’s a terrible timewaster but I miss being able to chat online!
        When I looked at TCW earlier today, last night’s comments were still there, then a long gap.
        I just hope the people at Disqus will get this issue sorted before they all go off for the weekend – it is only Friday…….

  78. I’m really missing the conversation this morning!

    Just been chatting on the phone to an old friend……… also my husband was surprised yesterday to receive a suspect email so he called our friends, and of course it was not really a genuine one from her….. he can’t really understand why hackers do this.

    1. We had a session of emails – purportedly from our daughter-in-law – drawing our attention photos ‘she’ had posted.
      Firstly, this just isn’t our d-i-l’s style.
      Secondly, the wording was wrong.

      We didn’t open the emails, just zapped them. We kept one when we knew out son was visiting. He checked, and it was some Yellow Peril trying it on.

      1. I get occasional emails from a deceased friend, which raise my suspicions a tad. If attending his funeral about three years ago was not quite sufficient to trigger an immediate deletion, examination of the sender’s email address revealed a .mk ending which, I believe, places him (more likely than her) in North Macedonia. That finally satisfied me that my friend was not communicating from his grave.

      2. I get several every day, usually spurious deliveries or the ‘photo’ ones. They are often from genuine names, but the hackers pick them up from group email lists somehow.
        I very often get ‘photos’ sent from ‘Peter Brass’, ‘Matthew Wright’ and my late cousin, whose friends those two were. He sometimes sent a group email so I know those two came that way. As he died two years ago, I know anything in his name is spurious.
        Our friend Alice said this morning that OH was the third person today who said they’d had a strange email from her. When I checked mine later, I’d had one from her as well.

    2. I’ve had a couple purporting to be from friends, asking me to buy things for them on the internet. They will, of course, refund me. I just say sorry, no can do; don’t do internet buying (which is 99.9% true; I rarely buy anything off the Internet).

      1. Those are definitely scams. I do buy stuff, mainly from Amazon – they may not be a nice company but they are usually efficient.

        A few years ago, there was a rash of those from ‘friends’ who had lost their cards etc abroad and needed bailing out.

    1. It is not just the NOTTL forum which has been interfered with. The Spectator and The Conservative Woman have also lost all their comments today.

      Anyone who thinks free speech still exists if your views are right of centre is living in cloud cuckoo land!

      1. What do you mean ‘right of centre’? Aren’t we sensible, decent people who value our country, its history, its laws and customs ‘far right’?

  84. One promise breaker, Sunak, has brought back another promise breaker, Cameron!

    While I can post a comment which will soon disappear I must say that Hunt’s ethereal promise on IHT is completely pathetic compared with what was offered 13 years ago. Here is an extract from The Guardian which commented on the matter:

    David Cameron said he would like to ensure that only the “very wealthy” pay inheritance tax as he voiced support for raising the threshold at which the tax is paid.

    The prime minister said he would like to ease pressure on people who do not regard themselves as “in any way the mega-rich” but whose estates are subject to the tax.

    George Osborne transformed Tory fortunes at the party’s conference in 2007 – and spooked Gordon Brown into abandoning plans to call an early general election – with a proposal to raise the inheritance tax threshold to £1m. This would have been doubled to £2m for couples.

    But the pledge was quietly dropped after the 2010 general election in the coalition negotiations as the policy appeared out of place in times of austerity. This means that inheritance tax of 40% has to be paid on estates worth more than £325,000.,

  85. Wow, a warm summers day up here – not a cloud in the sky and the sun financing another loaf production

  87. Over the Top, 1st Artists’ Rifles at Marcoing, 30th December 1917. John Nash.

    A landscape in the snow. On the left, a red earth trench lined with duckboards stretches away from the viewer. A group of soldiers clamber from the trench, going ‘over the top’. Two lie dead in the trench and another has fallen lying face down in the snow. Those who have survived plod forward towards the right without looking back. They walk beneath a grey, stormy sky, with clouds from shell and gunfire in the distance.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f3fcabdd87110083bc34818c7f49713b25feacc731a68f62670990408d58e054.jpg

    1. For those just exiting from a muddy trench, they look too warm, dry and mud-free.
      Otherwise, how depressing is that?

  89. DON’T REFRESH

    If you get in stay in: if you refresh you will lose what you are seeing now.

    1. The Kindle Fire tablet I’m currently using automatically refreshes every so often and I’ve not found a way to stop it.

  91. 378860+ up ticks,

    May one ask,

    Would it be feasible to crowd fund four ex naval patrol boats ( big bow wavers) manned by ex naval patriotic volunteers to operate in the English channel 14 miles offshore ?

    To guard against possible invasion.

  92. 378860+ up ticks,

    May one ask please,

    Would it be feasible to crowd fund four ex naval patrol boats ( big bow wavers) manned by ex naval patriotic volunteers to operate in the English channel 14 miles offshore ?

    To guard against possible invasion.

  93. The seven dwarfs go to the Vatican, and because they are the seven dwarfs, they are ushered in to see the Pope.
    Grumpy leads the pack.
    “Grumpy, my son,” says the Pope, “What can I do for you?”
    Grumpy asks, “Excuse me your Excellency, but are there any dwarf nuns in Rome?”
    The Pope wrinkles his brow at the odd question, thinks for a moment and answers, “No, Grumpy, there are no dwarf nuns in Rome.”
    In the background, a few of the dwarfs start giggling.
    Grumpy turns around and glares, silencing them.
    Grumpy turns back, “Your Worship, are there any dwarf nuns in all of Europe?”
    The Pope, puzzled now, again thinks for a moment and then answers,
    “No,
    Grumpy, there are no dwarf nuns in Europe.”
    This time, all of the other dwarfs burst into laughter. Once again,
    Grumpy turns around and silences them with an angry glare.
    Grumpy turns back and says, “Mr. Pope! Are there ANY dwarf nuns anywhere in the world?”
    The Pope, really confused by the questions says, “I’m sorry, my son, there are no dwarf nuns anywhere in the world.”
    The other dwarfs collapse into a heap, rolling and laughing, pounding the floor, tears rolling down their cheeks, as they begin chanting……
    “Grumpy shagged a penguin! Grumpy shagged a penguin!”

    1. We were given a similar promise before the last General Election but it was mysteriously forgotten after the results were in.

      Just remember the old Arabic saying:-

      Fool me once, shame on you

      Fool me twice, shame on me

    2. We were given a similar promise before the last General Election but it was mysteriously forgotten after the results were in.

      Just remember the old Arabic saying:-

      Fool me once, shame on you

      Fool me twice, shame on me

        1. I just assumed GCHQ had finally caught up with us! Either that or molamola’s sudden nuptials caused a surge of solar wind!

  96. “David Cameron will now be known as Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton ” and there was I thinking Chipping Sodbury would have been more appropriate!

    1. Balsa wood from the Cameroons?

      No rigid strength, sucks up wetness and then disintegrates!

    2. The comment count on the ‘front page’ is, I believe, correct. They can be seen in the moderation page and in users’ profiles, but they only appear BTL on today’s page if you have it openas they are posted. Leave – or refresh – the page and they vanish.

      2. Thanks, Geoff, for this update. All very mysterious. Especially for one who “refreshes” each time I go to the forum

  99. Another discurse thing today – the “wheel” on the mouse fails to move the page up or down.

    2. “The wheel on the mouse goes
      round and round
      round and round
      round and round
      The wheel on the mouse goes
      round and round
      all day long!

    2. Just tried on a different browser as I didn’t want to lose this page – still the same, no comments visible!

  105. I’ve had this reply from Kieran on the Discuss disqus site:

    Kieran 🐺

    10 minutes ago

    The fix will be a priority for sure.
    I hope to have news of that in an hour, hopefully a bit sooner.

    1

    Reply

    View in discussion

    1. Well done, J!

      I lost all comments again just by not going on here while I was on some other pages, with a tab open. Come back and whoosh! gone.

      1. I’ve not long come in – was hoping it would be fixed by now but I suppose it’s still fairly early in California.

    2. Ah good. I opened the thread at work this morning and have left it open so can see quite a lot now but of course when I get home I’ll have to start again from scratch seeing only new messages!

      Just had a very exasperating time trying to book a hotel room for Christmas. Barclaycard declined the card number even though it was being given only as a guarantee and no payment was being made. They though it was a scam! Had to unblock remote payments on my debit card for just long enough to have that accepted. Booking made in the end.

    3. Call me sceptical, but I’ll believe it when I see it… According to status.disqus.com, everything is operational. Last post on DisqusSupport at X – sorry – Twitter – was in June 2020.

          1. If a Nottler could be compared to a stick of rock the word Cynic would be inscribed inside from head to toe!

          6. I have no need to do that. I just give them my colgate smile and they swoon. As any of the lady Nottlers.

          10. I suspect that if you were to venture over to Blackpool there are bound to be fetish sticks of rock on sale which no doubt will include toes!

      1. That was my guess and that the “Islamist” bit is there to tempt in anti-Muslim commentators to be prosecuted.

    2. How long is it going to take our useless government to realise they have made a massive and terrible error allowing thousands of hate filled alien’s into the UK ?

      1. God forbid it should happen but it would be poetic justice if suicide bombers attacked the Supreme Court and the Home Office.

        1. But as all of us know the best laid plans of mice (politicians) and men quite often go wrong.

          1. It’d help if we could work out exactly *what* their plans are. But it’s impossible for people with intelligence to imagine the sort of brain capable of that kind of stupidity.

    3. If they think he’s dangerous why the f**k did they release him on bail?
      We’re run by absolute idiots or criminals or both.

        1. Do you really believe they’ll be able to follow him?
          You have greater faith in the police and security (sic) services than me.

          1. No, but who knows what goes through their minds when bail is offered nor what conditions are involved?

            If he’s a smuggled “boatee” he’ll be back to Iran or wherever fairly soon.

        2. Giving way too much credit there. He’ll have been released because the law says that he must be released on bail.

          2. The law should be changed, but that would require an intention to stop these things, and there isn’t any. Governments are deadly afraid of anyone squealing racism, discrimination, Islamophobia or anything else.

        3. The squirrels are only watching for right wing responses. Their estimate last year was 2 thousand jihaddis domiciled here. Clearly the easy option is to look elsewhere.

  107. Just now re-booted nttl blog and I can see 270 comments and they were still there after a refresh. Fixed?

    2. Same as it just open.
      What a relief. Any one had a front door knocked in and carried off ?
      Stand up and be counted.

  109. Hoorah. Fingers crossed.
    A bevy of computer nerds have done their stuff. I bet they’re thinking TGIF.

    1. Huh. Bet it is more likely: “At last we have every single NoTTLer’s e-mail, phone numbers (land and mobile), tax number, bank account password….for a start”

      1. I had a call from Barclaycard earlier. They blocked my card because of an inept hotel reservations clerk. We did their standard security questoins then I told them the sorry tale and they tell me the card has been reactivated. I advised blocking Radisson Hotels though. Staying at the cheapie Premier Inn instead. They were much more efficient and I’m assuming all their hotels are standard so the York one will be much the same as the one at Farringdon that I’ve used for the last two Christmasses.

        1. Premier Inn a Cheapie?
          Wow you’re rich!

          On the plus side, they have been known to pay compensation for bedbug bites.
          }:-O

          1. They’re more than a hundred pounds cheaper than the Park Inn (Radisson) where I’ve normally stayed in York. Plus their booking centre is in the UK not the US. EE have now barred me from chargeable services too because the aborted booking attempt was a 25 minute call to the US and there’s a spending cap on my EE account.

          2. VERY rich then!

            York is expensive.

            Ouch.

            I retain an Amex card which I use for such bookings. They are easily the most hassle free for online things.

          3. I retain an Amex gold card. Not sure who they are though but never seem to complain about my purchases.

          4. Some airports have Amex lounges where your gold card will give two people free entry, even if you didn’t book the flights through Amex.
            The beauty of that particular card used to be that it didn’t have a limit and a long period for payment due, 56 days if I recall correctly, a valuable facility in an emergency, I doubt they are still so generous.

            That card was replaced by all sorts of new ones, Platinum, Black, Premium etc.

            We used to use the Sydney lounge when flying from Australia. Free food and drink, papers, internet access etc.

          5. In the mid 70s, when working in menswear retail, a boutique not an ‘I’m free!’ store, an Amex card was worth £50 reward as opposed to £25 if you copped someone using a dodgy card when phoning for authorisation.

          6. I still keep my Amex cards because it seems to be a universal card, accepted where others aren’t.

            I only obtained one when I started working in Greece, where it was the one card that seemed to be accepted everywhere. My NatWest and my Barclaycards were often useless.

            One of the good things about it was that I could get cash on the card at the Amex office in Athens at a good rate and in those days without a fee.
            Nowadays I doubt that one can.

    2. Bless them. At least they sorted it before the weekend. Most of the thread today will be about Disqus, not about the dire state of everything else in the world though!

      1. It just shows how addicted we are to chatting on here. i had to go out today so at least I had some other things to do but if I had been home all day I’d have been thinking we were being deliberately silenced!

          1. I hated Zoom when it was all we do during the lockdowns – my ladies lunch group used it. Slightly better than nothing, but not enjoyable.

  111. M.V. Sliedrecht.

    Complement:
    31 (26 dead and 5 survivors).
    4,704 tons of gas oil, 998 tons of kerosene and 936 tons of benzine

    In the late evening on 16th November 1939 U-28 (Günter Kuhnke) stopped the unescorted and neutral Sliedrecht about 120 miles southeast of Rockall and examined the documents of the ship. They showed that the tanker was ordered by the British authorities in Gibraltar to proceed to Kirkwall for a closer inspection of the cargo. Kuhnke therefore ordered the crew to abandon ship and sank her with a torpedo at 00.20 hours on 17 November. Five crew members in one lifeboat were picked up by the British trawler Meresia and landed at Castlebay, Isle of Barra on 23rd November. The other lifeboat with 26 occupants was never seen again.

    Type VIIA U-Boat U-28 sank on 17th March 1944 at Neustadt U-boat pier in an accident. Raised in March 1944 and used as instructional boat after being decommissioned in April 1944. Stricken on 4th August 1944.

    https://uboat.net/media/allies/merchants/nl/sliedrecht.jpg

    1. An acquaintance, a Norwegian woman, her father was the fortunate captain of an oil tanker that crossed the Atlantic many times during WWII.

      1. It is an innate instinct. Nature programmes us to be wary people who are very different from ourselves in the interests of our safety.

    1. Par four for me, with a silly mistake.

      Wordle 881 4/6

      🟨🟨⬜⬜⬜
      ⬜🟨⬜🟨🟨
      🟨🟨🟨⬜⬜
      🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

      1. #metoo.

        Wordle 881 4/6

        🟨⬜🟨⬜⬜
        ⬜🟨⬜🟨⬜
        ⬜🟩🟩🟨🟩
        🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
        TG we’re back.

    3. A 4 here.

      Wordle 881 4/6

      🟨🟨⬜⬜⬜
      ⬜⬜🟨🟨🟨
      ⬜🟩🟩🟨🟩
      🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

  115. That’s me for this curious day of NoNoTTL…. Le us hope that it was temporary and not intermittent.

    Had a good funeral yesterday – 300 people attended. My late relative (and his wife) have lived in the area for nearly 50 years – run very successful businesses and are “well respected”. Nice to catch up with the younger generation, too.

    Have a jolly evening.
    A demain.

  117. Back from Stoke.
    Stepson is VERY frustrating. He needs a bus pass but he has thrown away all the paperwork necessary to support his claim.
    Ditto the letters from Social Security regarding his benefits.

    However, I did return via Leek where I had a pleasant 1½h walk round!

    2. I feel knackered just reading your daily travel arrangements let alone cutting down trees, logging them, building walls and other such sundries.

    3. Leek is one of those places that I’ve often passed by but never stopped to explore. Uttoxeter is another.

  118. https://twitter.com/claudiariendl/status/1725545624026726855

    David Atherton
    @DaveAtherton20

    Tower Hamlets school children who chanted the anti-Semitic & genocidal “from the river to the sea” received the endorsement of Tower Hamlets Bengali born Mayor
    @LutfurRahmanTH
    .

    He was deposed in 2014 for electoral fraud & “even raised the spectre of civil war in his borough as government inspectors swooped on his offices hunting for evidence of fraud, favours & unlawful spending.” Also he was found guilty of rampant postal voting fraud.

    He was reelected in 2022.

      1. You know they are the chosen ones. It is why they get away with rape and murder. What i don’t understand is why. They for the most part are lazy lying benefit scroungers and not at all productive except for child production.

        I think Tower Hamlets also covers Canary Wharf. How fecked up is that…

        1. Potato fight turns ugly: Violence erupts between chefs at posh hotel with one trying to strangle a colleague after pair started lobbing vegetables at each other
          Fight happened at the Cantley House Hotel in upmarket Wokingham, Berkshire

          https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12762847/Potato-fight-turns-ugly-Violence-erupts-chefs-posh-hotel-one-trying-strangle-colleague-pair-started-lobbing-vegetables-other.html?ito=push-notification&ci=qzFTzhB5Ye&cri=dkn-cMqEx1&si=p3DSQ2YwOLik&xi=b5f60c52-6dce-4376-9749-a62e964f078c&ai=12762847

          A potato throwing fight between chefs at a posh hotel turned ugly with one trying to strangle a colleague after the pair started lobbing vegetables at each other, a judge heard today.

          Violence erupted between the two cooks following a confrontation over potato croquettes at the 38-bedroom Cantley House Hotel in upmarket Wokingham, Berkshire, the court was told.

          It ended with chef Rashim Salim, 35, strangling and punching his kitchen colleague, Mr Barbu, after the pair threw potatoes at each other.

          2. I am aware of one Kitchen where there was a confrontation between two cooks over (conjugal rights?) of a women who worked in the kitchen. Perhaps best summed up by the expression: ‘Too many cocks spoil the brothel….”?

          3. The article shows a picture of the hotel and some potatoes. As if we didn’t know what they are. I wanted to see them strangling each other !!!

          6. I know it should be a serious matter but I cannot help but see the comical side to this.

  121. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/acbeac94351d118137808b2b5cfa311db9880ddce3e2953fd21e1cb403877344.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f8d5598c3c8c2babb97993c2a685e2fc5fa3772545717b8937e25b3036ce19c8.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9bbae1ec514b800de4a92c5c23785063d5b8218955fb0cc21bc88ee752eab72f.jpg Bugger it! If Disqus doesn’t want me I’ll entertain myself elsewhere. Continuing the refitting of my workshop and knocking up some sausages (and sausage rolls) will take up my day.

        2. Ahah, fat fingers , poor old King .

          I wish some one would cook something nice for me .

          I have vegetable and chicken stew on the go at the moment ..celery , onion, swede, carrot., sliced cabbage, leek,potato , parsnip, gently simmering for tomorrow … huge saucepan, will probably add noodles tomorrow .

          Son will be running in 5k Parkrun tomorrow, and Moh has lost a cap to one of his molars , so iffy about chewing.

      1. I’m always slightly suspicious of longer term studies being used to explain different newer problems.
        They are convenient and easy pieces to quote, even though the real subject matter, whilst it has similarities, is not what the study was about.

        Edit for card iology miss take.

        1. As my dear old Scottish friend says ‘if you believe all you read, you’ll eat all you see!’

    2. The ‘They’ must have altered their formula. I still believe some of our ongoing health problems are the results of the original jabs. They do not want to attract too much interest to this. It could cost them an awful amount of money.

  126. Well after my day out they seem to have fixed Discus…
    Interesting day out at the Musical Museum at Brentford. When I arrived just after opening time I was the only person there so when I joined the conducted tour it was a private thing, just him and me. Fascinating place with all sorts of mechanical pianos/organs/ music boxes and other things. He showed me most of them working, some of them incredible feats of engineering. Then the big Wurzlizer in their concert hall which even drove the keys of the adjacent piano. Worth a visit if you have a couple of hours spare.

  128. Forgive my racism, yet again:
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/africa/67452594

    John Obi Mikel says African footballers are effectively subject to an extra tax as they often support extended family and hangers-on back home.
    The former Chelsea and Nigeria midfielder has claimed some players are even “threatened by their own blood” if they do not offer financial assistance.
    “When you come from Africa – and this is something I don’t think we speak a lot about – when you make money, it is not your money,” said Mikel, speaking on Rio Ferdinand’s Vibe with FIVE.
    “You have all these relatives, cousins, whatever.
    “Your sisters, they go off and get married to some guy. He just wants to get married into John Obi Mikel’s family because then [he thinks] ‘my life is sorted’.

    Not dissimilar to gimmegrants arriving and doing similarly, but trying to get their hangers on living here too.

    EDIT
    The article is well worth reading all the way through.

    1. I feel for him. If this is the case, African footballers should be paid more, as they have more people to support.

    2. Tough titty, mate. We have to put up with those of cousins/family etc. who come over here and live off benefits. And they are NOT our families.

    3. Tough titty, mate. We have to put up with those of cousins/family etc. who come over here and live off benefits. And they are NOT our families.

  129. XR climate activists who smashed HSBC windows are found not guilty of criminal damage

    Nine climate activists have been cleared by a jury of causing £500,000 worth of criminal damage for shattering windows at HSBC bank’s headquarters in London.

    Extinction Rebellion co-founder Clare Farrell, said: “This was a trial of unusual agreement, the facts of the day were not in any dispute, and the fact that we’re on course for civilisational breakdown and climate collapse seemed strangely not to be in dispute either. It’s tragically surreal to live in times when the justice system agrees we’re totally f****d but has nothing to say about the cause, the remedy, the victims or the perpetrators. We must continue, we will.”

    https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-activists-who-smashed-hsbc-windows-found-not-guilty-of-criminal-damage-13010118

    The breakdown of civilisation will come as we run out of fossil fuels.

    These people are beyond reason and help.

    1. Were the jurors climate activists, too? If so, the verdict gives free rein to anybody to break the law with impunity if their given cause is “saving the planet”.

        1. As ever.

          It is noted neither me, my mother, father, husband, daughter, aunt, uncle, cousins nor grandparents have ever been called up for jury service. Prob. because we are all far-right fascist extremists etc. my brother in Oz called up just last month. My son called up within 3 months of his 18th birthday during his A-levels (he deferred).

          I love my son, but he was 18 for Heaven’s sake.

          1. At 18 he was more likely to give the “right” response. Had he been older, experience might have made him less malleable.

          2. I am 72 and have never been called up for jury service. My wife was called up about 50 years ago (before we met), and my son was called up about 15 years ago at the age of 25.

  130. XR climate activists who smashed HSBC windows are found not guilty of criminal damage

    Nine climate activists have been cleared by a jury of causing £500,000 worth of criminal damage for shattering windows at HSBC bank’s headquarters in London.

    Extinction Rebellion co-founder Clare Farrell, said: “This was a trial of unusual agreement, the facts of the day were not in any dispute, and the fact that we’re on course for civilisational breakdown and climate collapse seemed strangely not to be in dispute either. It’s tragically surreal to live in times when the justice system agrees we’re totally f****d but has nothing to say about the cause, the remedy, the victims or the perpetrators. We must continue, we will.”

    https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-activists-who-smashed-hsbc-windows-found-not-guilty-of-criminal-damage-13010118

    The breakdown of civilisation will come as we run out of fossil fuels.

    These people are beyond reason and help.

  131. Asylum seekers protest at migrant centre where Jenrick blocked charity visits

    Asylum seekers who claim to have developed rashes and viral infections have protested over conditions at Home Office accommodation, claiming that “nobody is listening to them.”

    “The site is like a jail. We’re not happy there,” an asylum seeker, who came to the UK earlier this year and asked not to be named, told The i. “We feel like there’s no one to take care of us.”

    https://inews.co.uk/news/asylum-seekers-conditions-robert-jenrick-2760031

    You know the answer…

    1. Aye, but I do wish people would stop saying ‘conquered’, ‘Britain is finished’ and a whole host of other defeatist nonsense. There was a reason why during WWII it was illegal to spread despondency. We aren’t finished and it isn’t too late.

      1. I hope you’re correct, but in WWII we hadn’t encouraged millions of Nazi soldiers to arrive and live here at our expense.

        1. I just grow tired of reading the same black-pill stuff on Twitter, Disqus and elsewhere, over and over. I’m convinced that some people actually enjoy revelling in their own misery and spreading it outwards. They seem to take some perverted pleasure from engaging in one-upmanship as to who can say we’re screwed in the most clear and despondent fashion.

          Person 1: ‘No, no, no! You’re wrong! We’re not screwed, we’re absolutely and utterly screwed to Bognor and back!’
          Person 2: ‘No, you’re wrong! We’re absolutely super duper stuffed and completely done for in every way! There’s no way back ever. We’re finished!’

          On and on and on.

          As I always say, history has never stopped before. And it won’t now. Things can change in the blink of an eye, and in both directions. Just because things seem to be getting worse, that doesn’t mean that they always will.

          1. You’ve reminded me of the Monty Python “onedownmanship” sketch about who had the most miserable and poverty-stricken upbringing.

          2. That’s *exactly* what I had in mind! The Four Yorkshiremen sketch. Just more absurd.

          3. You’ve reminded me of the Monty Python “onedownmanship” sketch about who had the most miserable and poverty-stricken upbringing.

          4. I agree.
            The slough of despond feeds on itself..

            But, at the same time, unless people in power wake up, look around and think about what they see happening it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

            Doing a “look at” scenario:
            Boatloads and planeloads of people who won’t integrate, many of whom hate us, all of whom will outbreed us.
            Politicians who pander to them
            Protests taking over our streets, cowering the police
            School curriculums poisoning the minds of the young with critical race theory and God knows what sex and gender perversions
            Etc etc
            What’s to like? What’s to look forward to?
            I’ll be dead, my great grandchildren will be a minority in their age group, theirs will be a minority in what was “my” country.

          7. Do you have many family left in UK? I only have a couple of cousins whom I haven’t seen in years and I have no desire to face transatlantic flights again!!!

          8. One son and his partner, and if I could I’d send them to Oz, even though they are very successful in their UK careers.
            Tough on HG but if they were all there we could well be allowed to join them.

            My brothers and sisters are all in the UK but we don’t really keep in contact, age differences and few common interests.

      2. “ There was a reason why during WWII it was illegal to spread despondency.”

        The government during those dark times was at least on our side. Getting the younger members of our current society to see the chaos ahead is the problem, they’ve been ‘brainwashed‘ in education and MSM output. Not to mention the social media crazed internet. Pornography is now the norm. Don’t get me wrong, a blue movie 50 years ago was an exciting thing to see. Now it’s available to youngsters 24/7 and seen as everyday entertainment.

        1. You’d be surprised by the number of younger people who are not brainwashed by this stuff. Quite the opposite. I’m younger than most of the demographic here. Not Gen Z, but still young(ish). It’s a problem, but you have to bear in mind the high degree of conformity that exists at school and also university these days. People are afraid to voice anything to the contrary, so gauging true opinions is difficult. They certainly won’t tell polling people the truth. But I know that there are plenty of younger people who think all this woke stuff is just stupid.

          1. I know a young lad (16 I think) who lives a short way down the track with his mother (a Scots Kiwi) and a local who is married to her.
            The few times I’ve stopped and chatted to him I’ve been amazed at his seeing right through what’s going on. He even gets into a lot of trouble at school and has to watch what he says to certain people. I just hope there’s more youngsters like him around. His mother is also not ‘woke’.
            My daughter thinks her parents are mad, while our son doesn’t seem to care.

  133. I haven’t looked back to earlier comments, as yet, and I’m sure many have been about the Disqus malfunction, but I have to say that 393 comments and counting is an indication of how stoical and determined NTTL contributors are. I thought there would be far fewer, given the circumstances.

      1. Haven’t seen it today so I couldn’t have thanked you – sure that’s not yesterday’s (Friday)?

          1. I’ve manually reset the computer clock to Sunday 19th.

            Hover over clock details in bottom right, select your clock and manually change.

            Don’t know how to reset ‘phone date/time.

  135. https://www.ocado.com/products/the-black-farmer-curry-mutton-and-potato-rice-596106011?ds_rl=1126321&ds_rl=1164972&ds_rl=1291426&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAu9yqBhBmEiwAHTx5p16BNo6z-8X9ZQUjDqBBjpD3cL7eFTKDFSb3hPaj_gUdFOPr4pmwWhoCysMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Long Grain Rice (32%), Mutton (20%), Water, Potatoes, Wheat Flour (Wheat Flour, Calcium, Iron, Nicotinamide, Thiamin), Onion, Curry Powder (Turmeric
    Coriander, Fenugreek, Cumin, Pimento, Black Pepper, Cloves), Black Pepper, Seasoning Mix (Salt, Spices (contains Celery, Mustard)
    Flavour Enhancer: Mono Sodium Glutamate, Colours: Paprika, Ammonia Caramel), Crushed Chillies (Capsaicin), Rapeseed Oil, Ginger Powder, Onion Powder
    Garlic Puree, Sugar, Salt Contains Celery, Contains Mustard, Contains Wheat Halal

    Mutton Curry is a much loved traditional dish in Jamaica. This authentic recipe contains tender mutton marinated in herbs and spices all in a spicy sauce, with long grain rice to serve.
    Flavours or the Windrush, Without Frontiers, Chilli rating – 3, Authentic Jamaican Recipe, Halal
    Country of Origin
    United Kingdom
    Suitable for freezingSuitable for freezingSuitable for the microwaveSuitable for the microwave

          3. More right than Trudeau. Everything he comes up with nowadays is either wrong or completely wrong.

    2. But not my wrist-watch or kitchen clock that both need manual hour change time on both shews 07:55.

    3. It doesn’t matter much, todays news is no better than yesterday – or the day before come to think of it.

      It is pretty hard to break the automatic date / time on computery things nowadays, they use an internet clock to set date and time. Computer and mobile connecting through the same network to the internet?

      Take your mobile for a walk to the nearest pub, restart it and see if that improves matters. It won’t help but you could have a nice drink.

  138. Trudeau shows us up again

    At this latest shindig in San Francisco, the village idiot was seen flashing his pretty socks at the Californian governor. Even fellow traveller Newsom thought this was childish and asked Trudeau if he ever wore black socks.

    His behaviour might explain why the Liberal party is polling at about twenty percent at the moment.

  140. The BBC was getting worked up this morning over Suella Braverman apparently stating that the law must be ignored to deal with the invasion of illegals. Damian Green was wheeled onto the stage to splutter his indignation.

    Braverman was referring specifically to aspects of international law and explains below in some detail, rebutting the hysteria of the BBC. This is all very well but how did we get to a point where such a tangle of quasi-constitutional, top-down law effectively hobbled the country so completely that it cannot say of its own free will “You can come in” or “You can go away”?

    Tinkering with a failed plan will not stop the boats

    There is no chance of getting the Rwanda deportations up and running within the current legal framework

    SUELLA BRAVERMAN • 16 November 2023 • 9:00pm

    The Prime Minister has announced that he will introduce emergency legislation to send those who come to our country illegally to Rwanda. I welcome his decision, as do, I’m sure, the clear majority of the British public.

    The immediate issue before us is whether the Government can send illegal migrants to a particular country in Africa.

    The more fundamental question is where does ultimate authority in the United Kingdom sit? Is it with the British people and their elected representatives in Parliament? Or is it with the vague, shifting, and unaccountable concept of “international law”?

    There is no reason to criticise the judges. They have merely interpreted the law of the land. The fault lies with the politicians who have failed to introduce legislation that would guarantee delivery of our Rwanda partnership.

    Now is not the time to waste energy on a post-mortem of how we got here. What matters for those of us who believe in effective immigration control is how to move forward. This requires honesty.

    There must be an end to spin

    Above all, it demands of the Government an end to self-deception and spin. There must be no more magical thinking. Tinkering with a failed plan will not stop the boats.

    Amending our agreement with Rwanda and converting it into a treaty, even with explicit obligations on non-refoulement, will not solve the fundamental issue.

    We lost in the Supreme Court because the judges determined that Rwanda cannot be trusted to fulfil the commitments we asked of them on non-refoulement, not because those promises were embodied in one type of legal instrument, a memorandum, rather than another, a treaty.

    To try and deliver flights to Rwanda under any new treaty would still require going back through the courts, a process that would likely take at least another year.

    That process could culminate in yet another defeat, on new grounds, or on similar grounds to Wednesday: principally, that judges can’t be certain Rwanda will abide by the terms of any new treaty.

    Even if we won in the domestic court, the saga would simply relocate to Strasbourg where the European court would take its time deciding if it liked our laws.

    That is why the plan outlined by the PM will not yield flights to Rwanda before an election if Plan B is simply a tweaked version of the failed Plan A.

    For emergency legislation to achieve what the PM says he wants, Parliament needs to amend the Illegal Migration Act so that it meets these five tests:

    1. The Bill must address the Supreme Court’s concerns regarding Rwanda

    Parliament is entitled to assert that Rwanda is safe without making any changes to our Rwanda partnership.

    However, for substantive and presentational reasons, it would be preferable to amend that agreement to address issues identified by the judges. This could include embedding UK observers and independent reviewers of asylum decisions.

    It is less important whether these commitments are embodied in an amended memorandum or a new treaty.

    What is crucial is that they are practical steps to improve Rwanda’s asylum system. On the basis of these new commitments, Rwanda’s safety could be credibly confirmed on the face of the Bill.

    2. The Bill must enable flights before the next general election

    Legislation must therefore circumvent the lengthy process of further domestic litigation, to ensure that flights can take off as soon as the new Bill becomes law. To do this, the Bill must exclude all avenues of legal challenge. The entirety of the Human Rights Act and European Convention on Human Rights, and other relevant international obligations, or legislation, including the Refugee Convention, must be disapplied by way of clear “notwithstanding” clauses.

    Judicial Review, all common law challenges, and all injunctive relief, including the suspensive challenges available under the Illegal Migration Act must be expressly excluded. Individuals would, however, be given the chance to demonstrate that they had entered the country legally, were under 18, or were medically unfit to fly – but Home Office decisions on these claims could not be challenged in court.

    3. Swift removal must mean swift removal

    Those arriving illegally must be removed in a matter of days rather than months as under the Illegal Migration Act. This means amending the Act to ensure that removals to Rwanda are mandated under the duty to remove, with strict time limits. This will streamline the Home Office process as much as possible, so that the only Home Office decision is to determine whether an individual falls within the scheme or not.

    4. Those arriving here illegally must be detained

    Legal challenges to detention must be excluded to avoid burdening the courts, making it clear that detention is mandated until removal.

    5. This must be treated as an emergency

    The Bill should be introduced by Christmas recess and Parliament should be recalled to sit and debate it over the holiday period.

    There is no longer any chance of stopping the boats within the current legal framework.

    Having committed to emergency legislation, the Prime Minister must now give Parliamentarians a clear choice: to either properly control illegal migration, or explain to the British people why they are powerless under international law and must simply accept ever greater numbers of illegal arrivals on these shores.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/16/tinkering-boats-suella-braverman-illegal-migrants-rwanda-uk/

    1. Rwanda is a drop in the ocean of immigration. Plus, for every unwanted immigrant we get we have to take in a “vulnerable” Rwandan – doesn’t help much as those Rwandans are likely to be on benefits forever. Plus, it does nothing to stem the “legal” tsunami of immigration taking place – largely from India, which of course Sunak would support.

      No politician should be allowed anywhere near office unless their ancestral family have been in this country for at least 3 generations.

  141. Good morrow, Gentlefolk. what was destined to be today’s story

    Two Scotsmen go to Hell
    A demon approaches the devil and says “Dark lord! Two men from Glasgow in Scotland have been sent here. What should be done with them?”
    The devil says “Glaswegians? Their kind are normally very friendly, helpful and honest, so we do not see many such men in my dark domain… Hang them in a cage over the lake of fire for now and I shall check on them later.”
    But when the devil flew up to the cage to check on the Scotsmen, he found them happily lounging around with their shirts off.
    “What is the meaning of this?” The devil cried. “You’re supposed to be in torment!”
    The Glaswegians looked surprised “Naw” they said “it’s pure quality taps aff weather here man. It’s no drab an’ dreek like Scotland, ye ken that way?”
    Fuming, the devil flew to the great thermostat of Hell and cranked it all the way to the top. And the next day, the temperature was so high that even the demons were sweating, the stones of hell were melting and the flames from the lake of fire were leaping higher than ever before.
    So the devil was surprised when he visited the Scotsmen and found that they had somehow procured plastic lawn furniture and Buckfast tonic wine.
    Raising a glass to the devil, one of the Scotsmen said “Hey big man! If I’d known it was so lovely an warm doon here, I’d’ve done a whole lot more sinning! Weather’s always shite in Glasgae. Always freezin’ ma nuts off, ye ken?”
    “I see.” The devil replied, smiling though clenched teeth “your dismal country has given you a great love of heat. The hotter it is, the happier you are. Well, we’ll see about that.”
    So saying, he flew to the great thermostat of Hell once more, but this time, he turned it all the way down.
    The next day, the lake of fire was frozen solid for the first time, sinners were frozen in blocks of ice and demons huddled in corners for warmth, their teeth chattering.
    But when the devil visited the Scotsmen, he found them jumping for joy, tearfully cheering “Scotland! SCOTLAND!!!”
    The devil’s jaw dropped. “What? Why? How? I burn you and you are happy! I freeze you and you celebrate! What is wrong with you?”
    One of Glaswegians turned back and said “Is it no feckin’ obvious ye daft bastart? Hell’s frozen ower! Scotland’s won the world cup!”

  142. Britain is the new capital of anti-Israel hate

    As their country unites in the face of terrorist evil, ours is exposing a nasty and divided underbelly

    DOUGLAS MURRAY • 16 November 2023 • 8:51pm

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31b70fefa13457471abadd0ab3e43430ec4a92b7b4b049e7366054108d7ff9d4.jpg
    London’s marching season: Anti-Israel protestors head for the US embassy in Vauxhall
    [A large number of useful idiots in there.]
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I have spent recent weeks in Israel, and goodness knows this is a country that has plenty of challenges. But one question I have been asked a lot by an alarmingly wide array of Israelis is: “What happened to Britain?”

    Generally, I get protective after this question, and reassure people that Britain is still Britain and that our core of decency remains as it always was. But the response is always the same: “But these marches?” Now perhaps they will say “… and the vote?”

    It amazes most Israelis – as it amazes me – that Britain has seen some of the worst scenes of all the anti-Israel marches across the world. And I say “anti-Israel” for a reason. The first protests in London happened before Israel had even begun its military response to October 7. Rallies were held within hours of the massacres. To most Israelis this is nearly unfeasible.

    What other country would see 1,400 of its citizens slaughtered, 240 kidnapped and countless more wounded for life, and not be allowed even a day to mourn? What other country, having suffered a set of atrocities hardly superseded in the whole history of violence wouldn’t get even one day of sympathy?

    Only the Jewish state. And everybody in Israel knows as much. Pakistan is currently in the process of forcibly deporting two million Afghans. Nobody cares. Bashar al-Assad is in his twelfth year of killing Muslims in Syria and the world’s cameras turned away long ago. Only Israel, when involved in any military action, or even when it is simply on the receiving end of extreme violence, cannot rely even on the world’s understanding.

    And it is in this light that Israel notices the British politicians calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. The ignorance of a large number of figures in British political life, from Humza Yousaf to Jess Phillips, can hardly be exaggerated. As it happens, a ceasefire of a kind existed in Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, and very painfully, in 2005 – removing every Jew from the strip. They handed over the land and got rockets in return.

    Everyone around the Gaza border and across wider Israel was used to running from rockets to the shelters. But despite various exchanges over the years, nobody ever foresaw the battalion-sized terrorist attack of October 7. It was Hamas who broke what ceasefire existed that day when its legions gunned down young people at a music festival, went door to door in small communities, and burned people alive in their homes.

    I have been to the sites of many of these massacres. I passed by one – the utterly destroyed kibbutz of Be’eri – earlier this week as I went into Gaza. It is a reminder of a dream that once was. Many of the residents of kibbutzim such as Be’eri were peace activists. I have seen with my own eyes the peacenik literature that lies among the blood stains and looted remains of their houses. Their dream died with them on October 7. Not one Israeli believes they can now live with Hamas – a group whose leaders say they want to repeat the October 7 time and again.

    To call for a ceasefire now shows an astonishing lack of military understanding but also a horrific lack of decency. I have watched the Israeli Defence Force manage the evacuation of Gazans from the north of the strip to the south, so that the IDF can try to isolate Hamas and destroy them. It is a righteous mission, though one that is likely to prove incredibly hard.

    I have also met many of the parents of the children and others stolen into Gaza. They want their children back. Why has there been no mass movement of MPs – from Labour, say – demanding that there be no ceasefire until Hamas hand back the hostages? Such a move seems to have never been on the cards.

    Anti-Israel Labour MPs and others only ever campaign and condemn when they attack Israel. Perhaps because they know that Hamas would never listen to them anyway. These MPs are internationalist eunuchs. But my, do they talk a big game. Especially while they whip along the sectarian politics, which are the real driver of the protests on our streets.

    In my view, Israel can look after itself. Watching the unity of this nation at war assures me of that.

    But as I watch hooligans clamber over our war memorials and statues and hold our city centres hostage, I wonder whether it isn’t Britain that is the one in real trouble here.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/16/britain-new-capital-anti-israel-hate/

    1. Frightening, not for the descriptions, but the truth of it.

      I was concerned that the Israelis were struggling to find as much evidence of tunnels as quickly as they wanted to, and callous though it may seem, I’m now delighted with what they are discovering, horrific though it is.
      Hamas is an evil that walks the world; it must be eradicated.
      Israel has no choice.

    2. I beg to differ on the assumption that the UK wins in the Israel hate states.

      For once canada can be towards the top of the pile in this. At least your PM has not received a rebuttal from Netanyahu for speeches made. Several fire bombings of Jewish schools and a few bullet holes in synagogue doors are not helping the atmosphere.

  143. Britain is the new capital of anti-Israel hate

    As their country unites in the face of terrorist evil, ours is exposing a nasty and divided underbelly

    DOUGLAS MURRAY • 16 November 2023 • 8:51pm

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31b70fefa13457471abadd0ab3e43430ec4a92b7b4b049e7366054108d7ff9d4.jpg
    London’s marching season: Anti-Israel protestors head for the US embassy in Vauxhall
    [A large number of useful idiots in there.]
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I have spent recent weeks in Israel, and goodness knows this is a country that has plenty of challenges. But one question I have been asked a lot by an alarmingly wide array of Israelis is: “What happened to Britain?”

    Generally, I get protective after this question, and reassure people that Britain is still Britain and that our core of decency remains as it always was. But the response is always the same: “But these marches?” Now perhaps they will say “… and the vote?”

    It amazes most Israelis – as it amazes me – that Britain has seen some of the worst scenes of all the anti-Israel marches across the world. And I say “anti-Israel” for a reason. The first protests in London happened before Israel had even begun its military response to October 7. Rallies were held within hours of the massacres. To most Israelis this is nearly unfeasible.

    What other country would see 1,400 of its citizens slaughtered, 240 kidnapped and countless more wounded for life, and not be allowed even a day to mourn? What other country, having suffered a set of atrocities hardly superseded in the whole history of violence wouldn’t get even one day of sympathy?

    Only the Jewish state. And everybody in Israel knows as much. Pakistan is currently in the process of forcibly deporting two million Afghans. Nobody cares. Bashar al-Assad is in his twelfth year of killing Muslims in Syria and the world’s cameras turned away long ago. Only Israel, when involved in any military action, or even when it is simply on the receiving end of extreme violence, cannot rely even on the world’s understanding.

    And it is in this light that Israel notices the British politicians calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. The ignorance of a large number of figures in British political life, from Humza Yousaf to Jess Phillips, can hardly be exaggerated. As it happens, a ceasefire of a kind existed in Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, and very painfully, in 2005 – removing every Jew from the strip. They handed over the land and got rockets in return.

    Everyone around the Gaza border and across wider Israel was used to running from rockets to the shelters. But despite various exchanges over the years, nobody ever foresaw the battalion-sized terrorist attack of October 7. It was Hamas who broke what ceasefire existed that day when its legions gunned down young people at a music festival, went door to door in small communities, and burned people alive in their homes.

    I have been to the sites of many of these massacres. I passed by one – the utterly destroyed kibbutz of Be’eri – earlier this week as I went into Gaza. It is a reminder of a dream that once was. Many of the residents of kibbutzim such as Be’eri were peace activists. I have seen with my own eyes the peacenik literature that lies among the blood stains and looted remains of their houses. Their dream died with them on October 7. Not one Israeli believes they can now live with Hamas – a group whose leaders say they want to repeat the October 7 time and again.

    To call for a ceasefire now shows an astonishing lack of military understanding but also a horrific lack of decency. I have watched the Israeli Defence Force manage the evacuation of Gazans from the north of the strip to the south, so that the IDF can try to isolate Hamas and destroy them. It is a righteous mission, though one that is likely to prove incredibly hard.

    I have also met many of the parents of the children and others stolen into Gaza. They want their children back. Why has there been no mass movement of MPs – from Labour, say – demanding that there be no ceasefire until Hamas hand back the hostages? Such a move seems to have never been on the cards.

    Anti-Israel Labour MPs and others only ever campaign and condemn when they attack Israel. Perhaps because they know that Hamas would never listen to them anyway. These MPs are internationalist eunuchs. But my, do they talk a big game. Especially while they whip along the sectarian politics, which are the real driver of the protests on our streets.

    In my view, Israel can look after itself. Watching the unity of this nation at war assures me of that.

    But as I watch hooligans clamber over our war memorials and statues and hold our city centres hostage, I wonder whether it isn’t Britain that is the one in real trouble here.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/16/britain-new-capital-anti-israel-hate/

  144. Britain is the new capital of anti-Israel hate

    As their country unites in the face of terrorist evil, ours is exposing a nasty and divided underbelly

    DOUGLAS MURRAY • 16 November 2023 • 8:51pm

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/31b70fefa13457471abadd0ab3e43430ec4a92b7b4b049e7366054108d7ff9d4.jpg
    London’s marching season: Anti-Israel protestors head for the US embassy in Vauxhall
    [A large number of useful idiots in there.]
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I have spent recent weeks in Israel, and goodness knows this is a country that has plenty of challenges. But one question I have been asked a lot by an alarmingly wide array of Israelis is: “What happened to Britain?”

    Generally, I get protective after this question, and reassure people that Britain is still Britain and that our core of decency remains as it always was. But the response is always the same: “But these marches?” Now perhaps they will say “… and the vote?”

    It amazes most Israelis – as it amazes me – that Britain has seen some of the worst scenes of all the anti-Israel marches across the world. And I say “anti-Israel” for a reason. The first protests in London happened before Israel had even begun its military response to October 7. Rallies were held within hours of the massacres. To most Israelis this is nearly unfeasible.

    What other country would see 1,400 of its citizens slaughtered, 240 kidnapped and countless more wounded for life, and not be allowed even a day to mourn? What other country, having suffered a set of atrocities hardly superseded in the whole history of violence wouldn’t get even one day of sympathy?

    Only the Jewish state. And everybody in Israel knows as much. Pakistan is currently in the process of forcibly deporting two million Afghans. Nobody cares. Bashar al-Assad is in his twelfth year of killing Muslims in Syria and the world’s cameras turned away long ago. Only Israel, when involved in any military action, or even when it is simply on the receiving end of extreme violence, cannot rely even on the world’s understanding.

    And it is in this light that Israel notices the British politicians calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. The ignorance of a large number of figures in British political life, from Humza Yousaf to Jess Phillips, can hardly be exaggerated. As it happens, a ceasefire of a kind existed in Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, and very painfully, in 2005 – removing every Jew from the strip. They handed over the land and got rockets in return.

    Everyone around the Gaza border and across wider Israel was used to running from rockets to the shelters. But despite various exchanges over the years, nobody ever foresaw the battalion-sized terrorist attack of October 7. It was Hamas who broke what ceasefire existed that day when its legions gunned down young people at a music festival, went door to door in small communities, and burned people alive in their homes.

    I have been to the sites of many of these massacres. I passed by one – the utterly destroyed kibbutz of Be’eri – earlier this week as I went into Gaza. It is a reminder of a dream that once was. Many of the residents of kibbutzim such as Be’eri were peace activists. I have seen with my own eyes the peacenik literature that lies among the blood stains and looted remains of their houses. Their dream died with them on October 7. Not one Israeli believes they can now live with Hamas – a group whose leaders say they want to repeat the October 7 time and again.

    To call for a ceasefire now shows an astonishing lack of military understanding but also a horrific lack of decency. I have watched the Israeli Defence Force manage the evacuation of Gazans from the north of the strip to the south, so that the IDF can try to isolate Hamas and destroy them. It is a righteous mission, though one that is likely to prove incredibly hard.

    I have also met many of the parents of the children and others stolen into Gaza. They want their children back. Why has there been no mass movement of MPs – from Labour, say – demanding that there be no ceasefire until Hamas hand back the hostages? Such a move seems to have never been on the cards.

    Anti-Israel Labour MPs and others only ever campaign and condemn when they attack Israel. Perhaps because they know that Hamas would never listen to them anyway. These MPs are internationalist eunuchs. But my, do they talk a big game. Especially while they whip along the sectarian politics, which are the real driver of the protests on our streets.

    In my view, Israel can look after itself. Watching the unity of this nation at war assures me of that.

    But as I watch hooligans clamber over our war memorials and statues and hold our city centres hostage, I wonder whether it isn’t Britain that is the one in real trouble here.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/16/britain-new-capital-anti-israel-hate/

    1. Is it World Cup Wendyball time again, Alf? I thought the games were played in the summer months.

      1. Euro ‘24 qualifier. England in top 5 in the world and Malta 180 snd England lead by a Maltese own goal. Pathetic.

        Edited own not on.

        1. The comments on the BBC website are mostly disparaging but what’s this guy smoking?

          I find the online comments far more negative than anything on the pitch. England have already qualified so won’t be going full throttle, plus they won’t take the A-game to Malta.

          I would have hoped that England would respect the opposition and always take their “A-Game into any match, and even if the opposition are poor England should set out to score as many as they can, if only to give players more confidence going into the later stages.

    2. Are you suggesting it’s poor when the opposition score more goals than you, even if you win?

        1. Rather sums it up:

          We have a save! A Bukayo Saka cross is headed clear but only as far as Trent Alexander-Arnold whose hooked volley bounces straight to Malta keeper Henry Bonello.

          All it needed was ” /sarc “

          1. My son (and I would say this, wouldn’t I) was very talented and part of the Chelsea youth squad and training with Nigel James (father of Reese and the girl that got sent off).

            Ultimately though talented middle-class white boys are NOT in demand. What IS in demand apparently are BBQs – big, black, queer. Perm any two of these and you are on your way. So my son, who has a fantastic football brain and puts the passes in to allow the strikers to slot it in the back of the net, get nowhere. Football’s loss.

    3. At last, they’ve finally woken up.
      Suddenly 3-0 with 15 left.
      It still doesn’t change my overall view of the game
      BUT, even as I write, it’s back to 2-0.

          2. Graham Taylor’s defining moment.
            Sun from recollection, although it may have been the Mirror

  147. Good night, chums. Sleep well and I hope you will awake refreshed. I shall chat to you all tomorrow.

        1. From this article it would appear that Biden claimed that Trump mentioned drinking bleach when in fact Trump never mentioned that people should drink it.

          What Trump did was speculate about what both light and disinfectants could do to the ‘virus’ and could these effects be brought to the human body. Floating ideas for consideration is not the same as stating facts.

          In fact, doctors and dentists do recommend and use a weak hydrogen peroxide solution as both a nasal spray and a mouth gargle. Hydrogen peroxide has a bleaching effect.

          1. He was much maligned for that – you could see in the video at the time that he was musing and speculating on what might be possible. He certainly didn’t suggest people drink bleach.

      2. Trump also said that terrorists were hiding among the migrants crossing the border and was pilloried for it.

    2. In the post I shared just now from Midwestern Doctor, he suggests that UV light was the only intervention with any efficacy. Though maybe it’s the VitD that has the effect, as UV from sunlight (rather than artifically) generates vit D in the skin.

  150. The unbreakable Tory alliance between Court and Country is finally shattering

    Ever since Disraeli, the Conservative Party has been a coalition of clashing factions. They may no longer be able to live together

    ROBERT TOMBS • 17 November 2023 • 7:00pm

    Is the Conservative Party on its deathbed, lingering on until electoral demise? This prospect is no longer unthinkable. Political parties do disappear or dwindle into irrelevance. In France and Italy, the once mighty Socialists, Communists, Gaullists and Christian Democrats have faded away.

    Established parties are declining in Germany. Rebellious movements are rising in Holland and Sweden. Even in the United States, whose parties are comparable in age and history with ours, the system has stalled. The Conservative Party is one of the oldest and most successful political parties in history. But that cannot guarantee survival. There is a global political pandemic from which it is not immune, and indeed its characteristic features make it susceptible.

    The disease is a general disillusionment with conventional politics caused by transferring power from accountable governments to a multitude of quangos, international organisations, law courts and central banks. We have seen this dramatically in the past week. Whatever one thinks of the Rwanda plan, it is not in the gift of the elected government. For years throughout the democratic world, fewer people have been joining political parties and fewer have bothered voting. Mainstream political parties once had a strong identity, drawing on mass membership and on civil society organisations such as churches and trade unions.

    Now who and what they represent is unclear to themselves and everyone else. They lack intellectual and moral self-confidence. Lobby groups and activists have taken their place, along with dissident movements of Left and Right. Yet the Conservative Party had, and to some extent still has, advantages. Since the 1840s when it was created, it can claim to be what Benjamin Disraeli called “the national party, the truly democratic party of England”. It has long represented the smaller towns, the counties, the stable and contented bedrock of middle England. It crosses social classes and regional boundaries more than its rivals.

    The structure of British politics is fundamentally Tory versus anti-Tory, with the latter representing the more peripheral, unstable and indeed disgruntled groups in society. The Liberal Gladstone saw this, and he was able to bring Irish Catholics, Scots and Nonconformists under his banner.

    Since then, they have gone through many manifestations – Liberal, Labour, Lib-Dems, nationalists, Greens – and the Tories’ crucial advantage has been their opponents’ fragmentation. Their own unity has been rewarded by an electoral system which delivers power to the largest coherent political group, rather than relying on the paralysing compromises of proportional representation.

    This may no longer be enough. After their triumph of 2019, the Tories have brought themselves to the edge of extinction. They have lost much of their middle-class vote and their working class vote too.

    Personalities aside, there is a fundamental tension within Toryism that goes back well beyond Brexit, Johnson and Sunak. The Tory party is both a Country Party (as it was called in the 18th century) and a Court Party. The Country Party defends local and private interests against a high-spending and interfering State. The Court Party governs the State.

    To manage to be both at once demands a careful balancing act, with Conservative governments restraining their own actions and financial appetites. The Country Party also wants a government that will defend its beliefs and liberties. Various forms of culture war have always been part of this. Nineteenth-century popular Toryism was a rejection of progressive Nonconformist puritanism, not least its crusade against alcohol and its perceived lack of patriotism. That was what finally brought down Gladstone, our greatest progressive politician.

    The Tory balancing of Country and Court has collapsed. High taxes, mass immigration, projects like HS2 and hasty attempts to impose net zero flout Country Party feelings. So does indifference to nihilistic attacks on national history and culture, now visible in practically every school, museum and university in the land.

    Brexit glaringly exposed the tension between the Country Party, which voted to Leave, and the Court Party, which wanted to stay. Michel Barnier, the EU negotiator, found Theresa May “infinitely preferable” to a Brexiteer, as she “doesn’t like Brexit”, and “never wanted it”.

    Remainers of the Court Party caused a constitutional crisis by trying to take control of government policy. Some 20 Conservative MPs, including former ministers, joined with Labour to pass the “Benn Act”, constraining their own government’s freedom of manoeuvre following Boris Johnson’s 2019 victory. This deep split has not been resolved. There is an alarming historical precedent: Sir Robert Peel’s abolition of agricultural protection – the Corn Laws – in the 1840s. Leaving aside the economic pros and cons (which are far from clear cut) this was a clash of cultures, temperaments, and even of morality.

    Peel, the founder of modern Conservatism, was the epitome of a Court Party Tory, high minded, intelligent, without people skills. He believed that Britain as a growing industrial nation needed the cheapest food available. His opponents – including young Disraeli, accused of cheap populism – believed that agriculture and rural society were the foundation of the nation and its institutions, and that they were being sacrificed to greedy businessmen.

    This became a quarrel about political honesty and keeping promises made to the electorate. Peel was accused of “deceiving our friends, betraying our constituents”. Peel thought he knew best, and many of his followers, including Gladstone, left to join the Liberals. It took the Tories a generation to recover, when Disraeli created a new image and purpose.

    The Tories only became the main party of government once more in the 1920s, when the anti-Tory vote split between Liberals and Labour.

    Leadership matters, but so do circumstances. The great Tory leaders have been maverick outsiders. The two dominating modern figures, Churchill and Thatcher, met mistrust and opposition within the Civil Service and the parliamentary party, which preferred centre-ground reassurers such as Baldwin, Chamberlain and Macmillan.

    But the centre ground collapses in emergencies, and Churchill and Thatcher won the support of the country outside Parliament because they were seen as willing and able to act in a crisis. Their positions were precarious, at least at first. Churchill was dependent on the success of the Dunkirk evacuation. Thatcher on North Sea oil and victory in the Falklands. They were lucky, but also made their own luck by boldness and clarity of purpose. This meant that they could make the Court Party follow them despite its misgivings.

    I am not sure there is much comfort for today’s Conservative Party in its remarkable history, and certainly no easy lessons. Its past successes, and arguably its justification as a political organisation, lie in the ability to reconcile Court elitism and Country populism. In 2019 it had a historic opportunity to do just that. It may never have such an opportunity again. What is fatal to a party is not failure, but a sense of betrayal.

    If the Conservative Party is to survive and govern again, it has to find 21st-century ways of reconciling Court and Country, which means that “taking back control” and “levelling up” must be more than slogans.

    But the present party is exhausted. It will need new leadership with more than a merely managerial vision. Otherwise we shall at best have a long period of Labour government, and at worst a directionless, fragmented and impotent political system.

    Robert Tombs is a historian and fellow of St John’s College, Cambridge

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/17/the-unbreakable-tory-alliance-court-and-country-shattering

    1. This is a good article but yet again, it ignores the elephant in the room, which is external influence on UK politics. If the Conservatives threw out all WEF members and withdrew from the WHO pandemic preparedness treaty, which is nothing less than a coup and power transfer, they would get the support of the people back.
      But they don’t want the support of the people any more, precisely because they owe their allegiance outside the UK.
      This is a vicious circle of self-destruction.

      Stop trying to pretend that the Conservative party is making policy independently, and acknowledge that they are merely implementing the global policies of the ultra-rich parasite class for the West!

  151. Evening, all. Just back from yet another meeting in Shrewsbury. By Friday night I’m absolutely shattered.

  155. We live in extraordinary times. The war in Ukraine is really about money laundering, child trafficking and bio-labs funded and encouraged by the Biden regime.

    Disgracefully Cameron has chosen to go first to Ukraine to kiss the ring.

    Now we see Xi of the CCP mocking Biden in San Francisco and asserting his party’s power over the US. The fact is that Biden and his corporatist backers are bought by the CCP and Biden is obviously a foreign agent.

    In essence the Biden policy to forego energy independence by implementing mad green policies and refuting both fracking and oil extraction, of which the US has vast untapped resources, is handing its past prosperity to China. To make matters worse the energy requirements of the US are fancifully now bound to reliance on the Chinese who are the monopoly suppliers of solar panels and electric vehicle batteries, the latter totally reliant on Lithium for batteries sourced commercially almost entirely from China.

    Today the release of the January 6 tapes should finally give the lie to the Pelosi organised faux insurrection.

    Interesting times indeed.

    1. Can’t disagree with your conclusions. Cameron’s behaviour is appalling. There was an interesting analysis on TCW, on Thursday I think, which pointed out that the ultra rich are more interested in horizontal connections, i.e. people at the same level as them, than vertical connections (to the electorate).
      Sunak, the billionaire’s lackey, exchanged a Home Secretary who cares about vertical connections with a new Foreign Secretary who cares about horizontal ones. Cameron reportedly would only accept the Foreign secretary job, which gives him maximum opportunity for horizontal connections. He doesn’t want to do any actual work to serve the people.

Comments are closed.