Monday 4 May: The Government has lost its justification for keeping us locked down

Posted on by Geoff Graham

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Today’s letters (visible only to DT subscribers) are here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2020/05/03/lettersthe-government-has-lost-justification-keeping-us-locked/

1,005 thoughts on “Monday 4 May: The Government has lost its justification for keeping us locked down”

  1. Good Morning Folks,

    Back to being first, the new normal,
    Light cloud cover here.
    May the Fourth be with us.

        1. The Forth Bridge was struggling with the weight of coal trains. The SNP Government spent £70m PLUS on new track from Stirling to the Longannet Power Station – a few years later the 2,600MW is being demolished as we now have windmills. The railway track is rusting away unused.

          2. The line that fed Longannet actually runs from Stirling to Dunfirmline and the Stirling to Alloa section was reopened to passengers some years ago. The reopening of the rest of the line would be a good idea.

          3. Forth Bridge to Longannet was used by coal trains. Stirling to Alloa closed by Beeching. Re-opened but the Alloa to Longannet section was not opened until about 2010.
            Around 2014/15 it was found that the Victorian track bed from Alloa to Longannet was sinking despite the re-opening around 2010 – they were on the point of spending another £20m+ when it was decided to close the power station.
            Alloa – Dunfermline link? Would be low passenger numbers.
            HOWEVER A Spanish train builder is looking at the Longannet site for a factory.

          4. It has been thought of. Action will be taken in the usual time scale. The usual time scale is around 30 years. Things may have changed by then. Scottish Government is run by political dogma not pragmatism and joined up thinking is not permitted.

          5. The largest coal power station in Europe when it opened. Demolished a few years ago, as was Cockenzie. This century we lost 3,600megawatts. Now the voltage drops at tea time.

          6. So that’s why they say “You’ll have had your tea?” Not enough power to boil the kettle?

          7. When he first learnt to read, MB announced to a queue that arriving bus was for ‘Cockineasie’.
            Cue red faced ma-in-law.

          8. Few Cockenease in East Lothian. London and Milton Keynes on the other hand…

          9. Reminds me of the German Roman I’m currently reading. It’s about 2 young sisters in a genteel American family, who are always at each other’s throats & saying the wrong thing at the wrong time when in adult company.

  2. Good morning. Bright and sunny – no breeze. Must go and make a loaf.

      1. I’m sure we could find a small vacant cage at London Zoo in which he could be displayed in order to rebuild our tourist trade.

    2. ….. By the time you’ve made sense of it ….. you’ll be dead….

  5. SIR – We were told that the purpose of the lockdown was to “flatten the curve” and prevent the NHS being overwhelmed. The NHS isn’t, wasn’t and won’t be overwhelmed: we passed the peak of infection a month ago. Yet lockdown persists.

    We hear about “essential jobs” and “essential work”, but all jobs are essential to those who still have them, and all work is essential in a thriving economy. We need to exit this lockdown promptly, while there is still a chance that the patient can be resuscitated, or the backlash against politicians will be severe.

    Mark Bailey
    London SW7

    The backlash is already severe.

    1. SIR – The Government’s initial reason for the lockdown was to protect the NHS. Now, however, we are told that it must continue in order to prevent a second spike in Covid-19 infections, and to protect the elderly and vulnerable. The mantra remains the same: “We are following the science.”

      So the Government is following, rather than leading. The lockdown is now about protecting its reputation.

      John Booth
      Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

      ‘Following the science’. They’re ‘avin a laff. Here are Neil Ferguson’s scientific qualifications:

      “He received his Master of Arts degree in Physics in 1990 at Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford and his Doctor of Philosophy degree in theoretical physics in 1994 at Linacre College, Oxford.[5][6] His doctoral research investigated interpolations from crystalline to dynamically triangulated random surfaces and was supervised by John Wheater.” Not much evidence of medical science in that background. And yet HMG and the BBC treat him as a revered ‘epidemiologist’. Bollux; he’s a third rate computer modeller who has been allowed to rise far, far above his station with his knack for panicking people and maximising publicity.

      1. Ah, fear not, vieille voiture. He has two great fans who post here regularly. Think the sun shines from his orifice.

          1. I always wanted one of those. Another childhood dream bites the dust.

          2. I’ve found one for you on e-bay. £2,950 and it looks to be in good nick. Were you to buy it there will be thirty or forty NoTTLers who would want to come over to Allan Towers to play with it, service it, take it to bits and then try to put it back together again…endless fun for all the family!

          3. I have horrible feeling that grandson wouldn’t let you get a look-in.

          4. My father bought an old one of those for the small holding. Great fun bouncing around the fields on a sunny day, those were the days 😃

          6. Three point fixing and power take off. Another funny little thing the British thought of.

        1. At Oxford & Cambridge all undergraduate degrees are BA. If one pays an additional £10 at the time of graduation, after three years one automatically progresses to MA provided that one hasn’t been convicted of High Treason against the Monarch (or some such onerous requirement). It’s all a wonderful wheeze/scam that impresses people who aren’t ‘in the know’.

          1. I knew about the automatic MA, but didn’t know that even science degrees were Arts.
            Altogether now: the things I learn on NOTTL.

          2. ‘Morning, Anne, “…even science degrees were Arts.”

            Yep, the art of obfuscation, better expressed as, “Bullshit Baffles Brains.”

        2. Oxford doles out MAs even for sciences, I think. I believe an MA (Oxon) is the equivalent of a BA and that’s why it should be shown to be from Oxford (or Cambridge).

  6. SIR – It is obvious that the lockdown is causing severe financial and psychological damage.

    However, recent polls indicate success for the Government’s brainwashing machine: most people seem to want the lockdown to continue even longer. This suggests that a relaxation would see a safe, self‑policing response.

    Nigel Thorne
    Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire

    Toady have just had Mick Lynch, Assistant General Secretary of the RMT, sounding off about why no relaxation of lockdown should be permitted whilst his members are …… (goofing off and drinking tea)…sorry – switched off the wireless so I didn’t hear the rest. They really are determined to ruin the country beyond repair.

        1. It’s a 1950’s generic style.
          Remember? The days when heroes were white, clean shaven males?

          1. He’s actually Irish. When someone is asked who that man is, the reply is “Dat’s Dan, Dare”.

          2. And the Mekon’s men were Irish. (O’ Mekon, O’ Great One, O’ Earthling.)

            :-))

          3. That’s not a spaceship, it’s Dan’s personal flying machine, the Anastasia, given to him in 1996 by President Sondar of Mekonta. Also known fondly as “Annie” (no relation to the pushy nurse).

    2. ‘Morning, Citroen. Yes, unusually Toady was on for a few minutes and I heard the interview. Although he wasn’t given the easiest of rides by Bilko, the one point the latter should have raised was this: with more buses and trains the passenger density could be lower than now, thus presenting no additional risk. Needless to say, it wasn’t.

      My overall impression was that the RMT (other blood-sucking parasitic unions are available) see this as a wonderful opportunity to cause even greater havoc with passengers trying to get to and from work. The fact that they may well take out their extreme anger on his members does not, for now, appear to trouble him in the slightest. However, in the present climate I think a serious backlash is inevitable if he tries to hold the country to ransom.

  7. Morning all

    SIR – I was astonished by the lack of understanding among researchers at Warwick University, who suggest that over-50s should be kept in lockdown for longer.

    Clinical practice is determined not by chronological age but by biological age. We all know of young 90-year-olds, and young-at-heart centenarian Army captains. There are old 70-year-olds, and even old 50-year-olds.

    A better criterion to take into account would be obesity. Where would be the advantage of keeping in lockdown a 70-year-old marathon-runner while letting a much younger, much more vulnerable, overweight person roam? A more sophisticated assessment is needed – and even then, in a free society, it should be advisory rather than subject to a fine.

    Dr David Gill

    Emeritus Consultant, Nottingham Health Care Trust

    SIR – The lockdown appears to have created a tribe of (mainly older) Dad’s Army air raid wardens.

    Yesterday I witnessed an elderly man shouting at a courier for not turning his van engine off while he checked an address. The day before, I saw a lady going around our local pond aggressively lecturing people on feeding ducks. Is this phenomenon unique to my area?

    Stephen Knight

    Barnet, Hertfordshire

    1. Stevie-boy, as a knight you should realise that it all goes back to the Battle of Barnet in 1471.

      2. If the duck-woman lives in Barnet, she should have been told to keep her hair on.

    2. I would just ignore it – people get irate for all manner of issues – the pensioner possibly was upset with his wife/husband and turned on the van driver.. Unless there is intimidation or violence just walk on and get on with your life.

  8. SIR – Charles Moore rightly highlights the timidity of world leaders towards China.

    Only Donald Trump has spoken out, and he has correctly included the World Health Organisation in his criticisms. If China is not held to account over this pandemic, there will be another one soon enough.

    Mick Ferrie

    Mawnan Smith, Cornwall

    1. If push comes to shove and certain countries gang up against China, I think we can guarantee further pandemics! Difficult one, this.

      ‘Morning, Epi.

          1. Good morning to you, too, Hugh – if it is a good morning, which I doubt.

      2. Not if the USA strikes without warning and wipes out their political and military power. Anyway, why would one think that this is anything other than a small practice run? Does anyone really think that giving China a telling-off will result in anything other than the CCP having a quiet laugh?
        Consider the extent to which China is involved in our daily lives. Where was your electric kettle made? Your colander? Your headache pills?

  9. Dog-walking over 70

    SIR – Dave Alsop (Letters, May 2) writes perfect common sense. I must point out, however, that at no time has the Government instructed us to withdraw volunteers over 70. Many in this group have decided to self-isolate and we have been able to replace them temporarily with other volunteers.

    Our advice to all our volunteers has been to take appropriate precautions. Thousands continue to help and are proving a godsend for elderly and vulnerable pet owners, dropping off shopping at the same time as collecting the dog for its walk, for instance. They are keeping themselves and “their” owner safe, and I cannot praise them highly enough.

    Averil R Jarvis

    Founder and Chief Executive, The Cinnamon Trust

    Hayle, Cornwall

  10. SIR – Charles James (Letters, May 1) complains that the lockdown has meant that he cannot visit his local pub, “which even Hitler did not succeed in closing”.

    Perhaps not, but he should be reminded that, for more than a century, his pub had been closing at 11 o’clock because of a “temporary” law introduced during the First World War. So he can blame the Kaiser for that – along with all the governments and local councils since then that have not seen fit to change this practice.

    Paul Moss

    London W10

    1. The tolls on the Dartford Crossing were supposed to have been abolished once the cost of the Queen Elizabeth Bridge had been met. This happened in 2003, and despite the government promising that the fees would go, they are still in place. It shows that the government, of whatever party, cannot be trusted to keep its promises.

      1. Same with the original Tyne Tunnel, opened in the 1970s. The tunnel was paid off years and years ago, but the tolls are still there. They’ve recently built a second tunnel alongside.

          9. More than a little inductance though – quite a few ‘Hooray Henrys’

    3. Good to see the microwaves in the middle for heating up the Greggs on.

    5. Good to see the microwaves in the middle for heating up the Greggs on.

  12. Covid-19 time lapse

    SIR – Anecdotal evidence points to doctors certifying deaths in care homes as involving Covid-19 based on evaluation of symptoms and presence of cases in the home, rather than by objective testing. Whether this results from NHS or government pressure, or from their own caution, is not clear.

    Daily bar charts of deaths presented at the Downing Street briefings show deaths reported to central authorities that day, and do not show data by date of death. Deaths from care homes necessarily take longer to be reported.

    There is thus a chance that the data presented to the public overstates the current number of deaths caused by Covid-19 and gives an impression of a flatter run-off in the decline of numbers than is actually the case.

    One hopes the Government submits statistics and projections to rigorous review by professional statisticians.

    Brian Gedalla

    Fellow, Royal Statistical Society

    London N3

    4. It’s taken him long enough to catch up on that.

      I’ve been saying it for ages.

  13. Douglas Carswell.

    I suspect that many of the restrictions imposed on society will crumble this week and next. Folk have clocked that many measures are a nonsense. Their default was to act responsibly if treated as responsible adults. They’ve instead been treated like errant kids.

    1. Unfortunately, Johnny, when the Government tried to rely on people’s common sense, a sizable minority shewed then had no such thing.

      1. Good morning, Robert.

        Honestly, I don;t think it was a “sizeable” minority. Certainly some people have behaved badly – but out of 70+ million, I don’t think there was really much of a problem.

        1. Good point.
          Small minority exaggerated by the MEEJAH to make it look larger than it was.

        2. Some people did behave badly at the start, but we were all adusting to the ‘new normal.’ It wasn’t pretty to see people panic buying, but if you think you may be locked down in your home for three months and have one chance to get food for your family, well I don’t blame people for panicking.

          But we have all been good boys and girls for seven weeks now. Enough is enough!

      2. I’m very wary of opinion polls.
        Firstly, because they all have their own agenda, whether it be political or financial.
        Secondly, because many interviewees will give the ‘right’ reply because they wish to appear virtuous. And there is a sprinkling of bolshie s0ds who are taking the pee.

        1. ‘Morning Anne, I must admit that I proudly fall into the “Bolshie sods” group when it comes to answering opinion polls.

      3. Well that is their problem not mine and I do not like having to suffer because of them.

  14. Boris Johnson must end the absurd, dystopian and tyrannical lockdown
    STEVE BAKER – 3 MAY 2020 • 9:30PM

    On March 23, as we debated the Coronavirus Act, Boris Johnson told the nation in a statement, “From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction – you must stay at home.”

    On March 24, the Government texted the nation, “new rules in force now: you must stay at home.” Immediately, the police in various places began enforcing them.

    A barbecue was turned over by police in the West Midlands. Officers in Crewe stopped cars to ascertain whether they were making essential journeys. British Transport Police stopped and questioned people on trains in and around London, asking their reasons for travel.

    But there was no new law in force until 1pm on March 26.

    That’s when the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations were signed into law by Matt Hancock under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. While most of us complied by voluntary consent, where the police enforced the rules in the meantime, they were enforcing a proclamation. Whatever the necessities, that the rule of law should have been overthrown in this period is extraordinary and deeply troubling.

    Only today do those rules enforcing the most draconian restrictions in British history come before the Commons for retrospective endorsement with just two hours debate and no division. We have lived under house arrest for weeks by ministerial decree – a statutory instrument that parliament had no foresight of and no opportunity to scrutinise or approve before it changed life in this country as we know it. The situation is appalling.

    As I conceded on March 23, there were good reasons for ministers to take rapid action. The public would expect nothing less. The first responsibility of any government is to protect the lives of its people and faced with the uncertainty of this awful virus, the instruction for us all to stay at home to save lives was the right call.

    But this suspension of freedom comes with a cost too. Millions of people in our country have been plunged into idleness at public expense and unemployment, facing financial and psychological hardship on a scale never seen before. Thousands of people have missed life-prolonging health appointments. Vulnerable people are isolated and domestic violence has soared. Soon will come the full economic impact on all our lives.

    These extraordinary measures require not only legal authority but democratic consent. There is a real possibility that they have had neither.

    A judicial review is being brought against the lockdown laws, claiming they are ultra vires – that is, that ministers have no legal authority to impose them in the way they did – and that they incur a disproportionate interference with fundamental rights and freedoms. There is serious legal scholarship supporting that view. I fear the present rules may be unlawful.

    Meanwhile, the CPS is reviewing every single charge, conviction and sentence brought under emergency powers after civil liberties group Big Brother Watch detailed a string of wrongful convictions in a damning review. The zealous criminalisation of people for activity that, until a few weeks ago was entirely ordinary, has concerned many, including me. I am horrified by the expansion of the surveillance state, with thermal imaging cameras, drones, ANPR and location tracking being deployed at the drop of a hat to police the nation into imprisonment at home.

    This is why the role of parliament is so vital. We must oversee the extraordinary measures that are being taken. Only we can supply legal and democratic legitimacy to the difficult decisions that need to be made in this crisis.

    As I read the regulations we will surely endorse on Monday, curtailing our freedoms in ways unimaginable, I see rules which are unclear, subjective and potentially legally unsound. For example, the law in England does not restrict how frequently or for how long we exercise, nor whether we drive to do it. Yet ministers have dilated on whether an hour or 30 minutes is allowable. And we have risked offences of sitting too long on a park bench, purchasing luxury food and sweating inadequately while cycling. People have been accused of not exercising when practicing yoga and walking. Families have been driven off their own outdoor property, against the law.

    This is absurd, dystopian and tyrannical. The sooner it is ended, the better.

    If parliament is to be able to scrutinise the lockdown restrictions on Monday, we must see the Government’s detailed exit strategy. Parliamentarians, and the public, need more than vague assurances to see the light at the end of the tunnel. When our lives are at stake, we cannot operate on trust alone.

    The world just changed but British values have not. It is imperative we hold ministers’ and the Prime Minister’s feet to the fire to uphold Parliamentary democracy, the rule of law and the freedoms which rest upon them.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/03/boris-johnson-must-end-absurd-dystopian-tyrannical-lockdown2/

      1. During the May Brexit shambles I wrote to several MPs and Steve Baker was the only one, other than my own MP, to reply. Baker, along with Paterson, appears to be persona non grata within the current Tory party. Both come across as thinkers and not mere followers, and that will never do.

        1. Quite. I had a great deal of time for Baker – then he began to wilt on Brexit – following Treason’s “plan” docilely. I am still wondering about him.

        1. He was and he did. It was a sop, I think, for his stand on leaving the EUSSR.

    2. Good to see Steve back in action. It is absolutely terrifying the government has taken on the most enormous powers to restrict our civil liberties without any parliamentary scrutiny. This must not become the ‘new normal’ and these powers must end as soon as possible – today for preference! Who could have imagined even two months ago that going for a walk, sunbathing or buying Easter eggs would be a matter for the police?

    3. The genie is out of the bottle. The petty Hilters and snitches in our population have seen how easy it is to cower the British population.
      To really rub salt into the wound, the media are running items on a very different Britain of 75 years ago.

    1. It is beyond time to get a new Prime Minister who cares about Britain.

  16. I see on today’s letters page that “Angling offers a lifeline out of isolation”.

    Not if you catch a virus.

    Fish puns, anyone?

        3. 318867+ up ticks,
          Morning E,
          Taken with a daily dose of Cod liver oil.
          Many a true word is…….

          1. Morning ogga.

            Because I only occasionally take a cod liver oil capsule, they stick together and their container needs a good shake to separate them.

            I discovered the other week that it’s a good idea to keep the lid on when you do the shake.

          2. ‘Morning, Eddy, that sounds a bit like how to tell an illegitimate pickled onion from a legitimate one.

            The process involves turning the jar upside down, carefully and slowly removing the lid and all the bast*rds fall out.

          3. Morning NTN.

            Sounds like you’ve done the usual trick of asking the time of someone with a cuppa in their watch hand.

            P.S. I have been known to check the best-by date on the bottom of a can after opening it.

    3. Please, no. They are so boring and predictable and often ruin a discussion.

          5. Bonjour Bill.

            Not so, mon ami, in fact the lockdown is actually driving me sane (and getting me a bit worried about it).

  17. So why won’t the NHS allow doctors to try re-purposed drugs on the wards to try and save as many people as possible ?

    Perhaps because if they did the government and Gates would lose control and be unable to fulfill the global medical agreement they desire, and lose any unknown benefits

    So British drugs are not necessarily for British people thanks to Johnson.

    Consequently has Gates paid off any politicians to get the favored terms he desires ?

  18. Αναστήθηκε!

    “In Greece the discussion about “essential businesses” appears to have gone in a different direction than in the United States. While Americans are bickering over when to reopen malls, restaurants and casinos, Greece has managed to get its “most essential” businesses up – so to speak – and running. By which we of course mean brothels.

    Brothels in Greece – where a global pandemic can’t possibly stop the local men from getting their dose of sex-for-sale – are set to re-open soon, however with a set of new laughably absurd protection measures, on top of the precautions one would already expect when visiting a brothel, according to The Newspaper.

    Customers at brothels will be required to wear plastic masks and gloves while having sex, according to the Greek press. And in addition to the robust security already needed in a brothel, the additions of thermometers, disposable sheets and “frequent periodic disinfection” of the business will all be a part of post-coronavirus brothel life (it wasn’t immediately clear how s temperatures of both hookers and clients would be taken).”

    Good to see one Government taking a Hard nose look at getting things back to normal…..

  21. This obituary appeared several days ago and warrants a wider audience.

    Lieutenant-Colonel Brian Baty, SAS and Argylls officer who won a Military Medal in Borneo – obituary

    His citation praised his speed of movement, determined leadership and his ability to get the best out of his men

    By Telegraph Obituaries 30 April 2020 • 3:52pm

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/obituaries/2020/04/28/TELEMMGLPICT000229514387_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqxTgV-VEbjByvRp9E0Pb-y8zfXoTfjH4yJhi-vmaneGw.jpeg?imwidth=960
    Brian Baty

    Lieutenant-Colonel Brian Baty, who has died aged 86, served with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the SAS; commissioned in the field, he won a Military Medal in Borneo in 1964.

    In 1964 – during the Confrontation with Indonesia – Baty, then a sergeant, was serving in Sarawak, Borneo. He was in charge of an Argyll tracker team and had under his command five regimental soldiers, a Royal Army Veterinary Corps corporal, two dogs, and two police force field trackers.

    During the night of August 2, an Argyll platoon position at Pa Butal was fired on by an Indonesian mortar unit. Baty and his team were flown to the position at first light the next morning. They had orders to find the enemy and had half a platoon in support.

    At about 08.00, Baty established that the Indonesians were some six hours ahead of him. He followed fast, and at midday the dog, Desmond, pointed to an enemy position and was replaced by visual trackers.

    The Indonesians had crossed the river that they mistakenly thought formed the border to the British side, and had the advantage of higher ground. Baty’s lead scout killed an Indonesian sentry and then wounded a second man.

    Machine-gun fire then pinned down the tracker team and Baty sent the half platoon on a flanking movement which overran the enemy position. The enemy fled straight into another Argyll ambush further up the track. Overall, the enemy had six men killed and left behind 27 complete sets of equipment.

    Baty was awarded an MM. The citation stated that the success of the operation was entirely due to his speed of movement, determined leadership and aggressive action, and his ability to get the best out of his men late in the day and after a hard chase.

    Brian Richard Mark Baty was born at Camberwell in London on March 21 1933. His father was a taxi driver who had served in the Royal Navy and the Fleet Air Arm during the First World War, while his mother was a seamstress.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/obituaries/2020/04/28/TELEMMGLPICT000229514396_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpN6hdwAPtU33FfxTupVL7cZH2nNT3Ot7wZBxdvniyTw.jpeg?imwidth=960
    At the SAS base at Hereford in 1954

    In 1940, during the Blitz, he was labelled and at the station ready to be evacuated when his mother decided she could not bear to let him go. His father loaded up the London taxi cab with his mother, elder brother and sister, the cat and the sewing machine and drove them down to St Just in Cornwall.

    At first the only accommodation they could find was an abandoned chip shop. The congealed fat was still in the fryers and the family slept on the floor. After a week, they moved to Fowey and, a year later, to Ilsington in Devon, where his father rejoined the forces but this time served in the Army.

    It was there that young Brian met Shirley, his future wife, who was aged eight at the time. She held his coat while the local boys tried to beat him up. He won, and all the boys remained friends for many years.

    He left school aged 14 and in 1951 enlisted in the Argylls. He was posted to Hong Kong because he wanted to join the 1st Battalion in Korea but he was under-age and took no part in the conflict.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/obituaries/2020/04/28/TELEMMGLPICT000229514390_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqQHD8p5ZuBXjSWPZ-yE9k2YNBjM3mkmJmaOGKkzc2tak.jpeg?imwidth=960
    Baty in 1953

    Baty volunteered for the SAS but failed the selection test twice because he had broken his ankles and did not report this until he was unable to walk. He passed in 1955 at the third attempt and served with D Squadron in Malaya as a signaller and interpreter. A good linguist, during his career he learnt Malay, Arabic and German.

    In 1958, operations in Malaya were winding down and his squadron was deployed to Oman. The Jebel Akhdar, or Green Mountain, was in the hands of a large rebel group who lived in caves and came down at night to harry the forces of the Sultan of Oman.

    The Sultan asked for help from the British Government in dislodging them. On a moonlit night in January 1959, Baty was one of the small force that climbed the 9,000ft mountain and, after a brisk firefight supported by the RAF, defeated the rebels.

    He returned to the SAS base, initially at Malvern, then at Hereford, for three years. In 1962 he rejoined the Argylls and his family moved to Singapore. He was commissioned while on active service in Borneo; the award was gazetted in October 1965.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/obituaries/2020/04/30/TELEMMGLPICT000229514389_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq5CleMo9isD8GZWOb6mXbleNRGR8xe-Jq2BlXjD7mZgI.jpeg?imwidth=960
    Left, outside Buckingham Palace after receiving his Military Medal, alongside David Tomson

    On his return to England, Baty was based at Plymouth with the Argylls and accompanied the 1st Bn on a nine-month tour in Aden. He commanded the recce platoon before becoming the intelligence officer. In July 1967, the Battalion reoccupied the Crater district of Aden – which had been taken over by police mutineers and rebel forces – under the command of Lt Col Colin Mitchell.

    Baty returned to Plymouth as second in command of a company before accompanying the Argylls to Berlin. At the end of the two-year tour, the Bn was in danger of being disbanded, and Baty rejoined 22 SAS Regiment as adjutant. During the following four years, he took part in tours in Oman, carrying out operations against the communist rebels.

    In April 1976 he moved to Northern Ireland to command D Squadron. Shortly after his arrival, eight of his men based in South Armagh were arrested and accused of crossing the border carrying arms. Baty defended them in a Dublin court and explained that they had made errors because they were using inadequate maps; they were let off with a fine. At the end of an exacting tour, he received a Mention in Despatches.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/obituaries/2020/04/30/TELEMMGLPICT000229514395_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqnFWrKBYEBGn6ARPcMRQYjZv6TrLD9nWPHpejjipiLeg.jpeg?imwidth=960
    At Hereford in 1983

    From 1977 to 1979 he was OC Training Wing. During that period he reorganised the SAS selection procedure. Promoted acting lieutenant-colonel, for the next four years he commanded an individual training unit at a camp close to Hereford.

    He was appointed MBE in 1984. The citation paid tribute to his outstanding leadership qualities, meticulous administration and scrupulous supervision. Baty retired from the Army and moved to Sri Lanka, where he worked for the private company Saladin Security for the next four years.

    He eventually settled in a village in Herefordshire. He kept in touch with his old comrades and was a stalwart supporter of the British Legion.

    Brian Baty married, in 1953, Shirley Grose, who survives him with their two daughters. A daughter predeceased him.

    Lieutenant-Colonel Brian Baty, born March 21 1933, died February 27 2020

    1. He was appointed MBE in 1984.

      just think of the Honours he could have been awarded if he were

      A sportsman
      Thespian
      Pop Singer
      Civil servant
      MSM scribbler
      Politician

      AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

      2. Indeed, Tryers. He was given the gong usually reserved for long-serving lollipop ladies of good character. A thousand times AAARRRGGGHHH.

          1. I know, I know…it was inevitable given his impeccable authentic lefty luvvie credentials.

      1. No. They keep them in school for an extra 4 years and then load them up with debt for another 3 to keep them compliant.

    5. Regarding the last photo, I wonder who the RE Staff Sergeant stood next to him was?

    7. As a point of information, the FAA did not exist in WW1. It was the RNAS – Royal Naval Air Service, sarcastically known as Really Not Altogether Sailors.

  22. Went to Tesco today for a change. Got everything, including a prepack of 2 fillet steaks branded ‘The Meat Folk’, and BRITISH. They also had hand sanitiser bottles in…

      2. There was planty of bread flour in Morrisons last Friday but no self raising.

        1. There were reports yesterday that, for anyone who lives near a Morrison’s that has a bakery, they will sell you flour as they have it in abundance. The deliveries to their bakeries are still going ahead as usual, so they have decided to sell flour to customers who cannot get any 3lb bags. I’m sorry, I don’t know any further details, from what I read you just turn up to their bakery and ask. I’m sure it won’t be that easy, and it’s of no use to anyone who can’t get to the shop. I tried to look at their website, but I was placed in a queue. To look at their website!

          1. Thanks for the tip. We have a Morrison’s close by and will let you know.

          2. Ours has what they call a ‘bakery’ but is actually just a lot of ovens for cooking their pre-made loaves and rolls.

          3. Our Morrison’s do sell the bread flour but they put on the shelves in the morning and it goes very quickly. We don’t do early mornings.

        1. And the very best thing about it all, mola, is that it’ll get worse and worse.

          1. I Suddenly had an urge. When passing the fresh cream stand in Tesco, I spotted a Victoria cream and jam sponge cake. Sod the waistline and overweightidity. I have cut it in pieces and put it in the freezer. I am about to have the first piece with my coffee and pretend I’m having Sachertorte…

  23. Has Prime Minister Johnson been leveraged by globalist billionaire Bill Gates ?

    The latest Gov UK press release is just globalist gush about “shared decisions” with other countries and giving drugs away which might cure Britons..

    ..and nowhere is Bill Gates mentioned who is deeply involved in the Oxford drug trials.

    It all looks very suspicious !

  24. What is the betting that once we get lumbered with the new planet saving normal we will never hear of the corona virus again?

  25. One thing I do not understand is that the lockdown is still in place, no unnecessary journeys yet the drive through Costa Coffee has just opened.

    1. ‘Morning, Bob.

      As there is a large, blank space in your post, it looks as though she pinched them back.

    2. Just as the west has now been misruled for many years by the Revolting Students of 1968.

    3. 318867+ up ticks,
      Morning Bob,
      So it would seem very little change from the past 30 years.

    4. Just as the west has now been misruled for many years by the Revolting Students of 1968.

    1. Good afternoon Belle
      …….as Mark Burrows recounts. It sounds, almost as if he was there! 😂😂😂

    2. Thank you, Mags, an interesting read that puts a lot of historical wildness into a better perspective.

    3. “In what is regarded as the first example of biological warfare, Tartars had catapulted victims of the Black Death over the walls of the Black Sea port of Kaffa.”
      “Ooooooh, please could you aim me at the house over there with the red tiles. It’ll give the wife a bit of a surprise.”

    4. Fascinating read – and still true today that poverty, overcrowding, lack of hygiene and poor diet leads to higher mortality. I wonder why it eventually died out in Europe.

          1. That is what we learned in school. Brown rats are more aggressive, but they don’t harbour the plague-causing fleas. They gradually drove the black rats out of Europe.
            I am quite prepared to learn that this fact has been debunked and academics have dreamed up a new reason nowadays!

          2. I don’t know what the truth is, but it remains that such a deadly disease died out without a vaccine, or any other medical intervention.

  28. 318867+ up ticks,
    Morning Each,
    The governing parties lost it’s justification for governing
    these Isles via b liar the treacherous latch lifter.
    The mass uncontrolled immigration baton from the
    b liar reign alternating between the lab/lib/con.

    The politico’s in the main saw the fortunes to be made
    from the EUs golden trough, arse of the pinstripe pants hanging out one minute, millionaires the next & the power wielding that could be achieved en route.

    The beauty of this period has been that very little had to be actually done, if anything, just plausible lies, a large dose of deceit with a good coating of vows, promises, & pledges, ( manifesto ingredients) serve to the gullible “best of the worst voting brigade” always keeping in mind that putting the party first has made this Country what it is today.

      1. 318867+ up ticks,
        Afternoon N,
        Next GE the indigenous peoples of these Isles should NOT ask ” what can my country do for me” but for a complete change of venue, NEVER been tried in the last four decades,try out
        what can I do for………..
        Sad to say,
        Lest we will forget, three monkeys rule O’K.

  29. An Oxford based pharma company is being allowed to trial their repurposed cancer drug in the Oxford trials.

    But thanks to the restrictive terms imposed by the NHS, the results won’t be known for months.

    Doctors in hospitals could find out in a week if it worked, but the NHS, probably thanks to Gates, won’t let them do it.

  30. Good morning all.

    I have written previously about the deification of the NHS, which has gone on for years and made worse by this crisis. This has put it beyond any criticism or much-needed reform. One new aspect of this is the suggestion that the NHS is effectively a charity that we need to raise money for. From the excruciating ‘big night in’ to the efforts of the admirable Captain Tom, we are being encouraged to raise money for ‘our NHS.’ Walking down my road, I have even seen little trinkets which people have made, we are encouraged to leave a donation for the NHS.

    The NHS is not a charity! It is paid for by our taxes and has a budget of circa £134bn a year! The people who work there are not volunteers, but are paid (in some cases very handsomely) to do a job. Do people really not understand this?

    1. And the socialist Nick Timothy ,writing in today’s Telegraph, wants you to pay more for the megalith…

    2. And the socialist Nick Timothy ,writing in today’s Telegraph, wants you to pay more for the megalith…

    3. These monies raised do not go to the NHS – they go to “NHS Charities”. That is charities which support the NHS. I just hope the Air Ambulance service which is funded entirely by voluntary contribution gets some of it.

      1. Same same. I have just seen a Daily Mail campaign inviting us to donate to”NHS Charities” which provide PPE for the NHS. Why does this behemoth, which consumes £134bn of our money require further charitable donations?

    4. The NHS is a money dispensing mechanism for venture capitalists milking the Government Magic Fairy under PFI. If we want doctors and nurses, then we must pay for them from earnings and savings that have already had tax extracted to pay executive bonuses of the self-made “wealth generators” at global market rates.

      For decades the political movers and shakers have insisted that we operate like America, because it’s cool and hip-hop and therefore what people want.

    5. Well said, JK. And as I have said before, publicly applauding a state-run body like the NHS is so North Korean.

    6. My son has suggested that, rather than getting him a birthday gift this month, we donate the money to an ‘NHS charity’. No son, the NHS has more than enough of our money through the tax system over our working lives. I will donate some money to either a local hospice or other worthwhile charity.

      1. Well said.

        This is the NHS where your own visits to a consultation are cancelled , or not seeing the same consultant twice , or we are just NHS numbers where they don’t mind that we don’t matter.

        So different isn’t it in the private sector if one has health insurance ?

        1. When you use private health care, you are asked if you are insured.
          I wonder if the charges are different (I hope lower) if you are paying directly out of your own pocket?

          1. Years ago Moh was with BUPA, his treatment was noticeably different .

            Of course, I could see that this is what a few NHS doctors do as a sideline . I am cynical enough to assume that that is why many NHS clinics run late!

          2. When J damaged his shoulder last summer, the GP referred him to a chirpractor – she needed an MRI scan so she could see what she was dealing with. He paid for that – she said it was beyond her help and referred him to the surgeon we saw in Bristol. He paid for that.
            The surgeon said he’d operate via the NHS, and the GP was happy to refer him back again. So the surgery and follow up was via NHS but in the private hospital.
            Sadly he still can’t play tennis as the club and the courts are closed.

      2. Or save it towards the cost of private medicine when you get told that the waiting list is too long…

      3. Well done.
        The CEO of our local hospice is a volunteer. I bet she’s a rarity.

    7. Some of your criticism of the NHS is justified but there is another side of the coin. A great number of NHS workers do not enjoy a very handsome salary and very many of those who do are doing so because they have spent many years of sacrifice and training to reach the top echelons of their specialities. I surmise that the main target of your comment are “managers” but it is a myth that the NHS has a disproportionate number of them compared with industry, commerce and even government. You cannot run a £134bn a year enterprise that employs over a million people without experienced and well-qualified managers. The NHS is in need of reform but, given its size and complexity, and the skill levels demonstrated every day, it is pretty good. If the NHS has been deified, I don’t think that it has been by the vast majority of those in the NHS. I have no data to prove it but my overwhelming impression is that for every one person criticising the NHS, there are five or ten who have good reason to be very thankful for it.

  32. So why won’t the NHS allow doctors to try re-purposed drugs on the wards to try and save as many people as possible ?

    Perhaps because if they did the government and Gates would lose control and be unable to fulfill the global medical agreement they desire, and lose any unknown benefits

    So British drugs are not necessarily for British people thanks to Johnson.

    Consequently has Gates paid off any politicians to get the favored terms he desires ?

    1. Putting aside the Gates paranoia (which I’m not qualified to comment on), the problem is ambulance chasing lawyers and a lumbering bureaucracy in hock to the H&S freaks.
      Doing nothing is always easier.

      1. The NHS has already said “the effects of these drugs are already known from other uses and your doctor will monitor your progress”.

        But that only applies in the Oxford trials.

        Outside the Oxford trials the drugs are potentially too dangerous and might harm the patient.

        So it’s pretty certain the NHS has a hidden ulterior motive.

        Insofar as Gates is concerned, I think the government doesn’t mention him because people would then connect to Gates’ Event 201 he held in New York last October, and then work out what’s going on.

        1. They don’t want to be held liable when things go wrong – presumably anyone signed up to a trial signs a disclaimer.

          1. Yes, but the point is that it was a complete No No for doctors to use re-purposed drugs up to March 18, but from March 19 it was fine, though only with Gates. For various reasons it didn’t actually start until April.

            If a disclaimer is the reason, then that could have been done outside the Gates regime too.

            Professor Whitty was meeting with Gates in Nov/Dec 2019, and one of the meetings was labeled ”meeting of teams”.

            Teams would be needed to run trials in various NHS hospitals.

            That follows on from the Gates pandemic planning symposium in New York on October 19.

            So it looks to me that part of the jigsaw is missing.

    2. While politicians are required to declare interests, the requirement does not extend to their families. So money can pour into MPs’ wives and children from all sorts of sources, Gates, Mafia, Soros, Palestinian Front, Clinton, Big Pharma, Chinese Government… and no one knows.

    2. On beeboid radio 3 this morning, they played a recording of “Come into the garden, Maud…” The second line is remarkably topical:

      Come into the garden, Maud,
      For the black bat, Night, has flown;

      1. “I am here ……
        By the gate alooooone…..”

        So Maud’s swain was observing social distancing.

    3. I’m still surprised there aren’t brickbats flying in places like London.

    4. heh heh
      that was me, I assume.
      I found it on a comment from the US on Breitbart, and adopted it enthusiastically.

    1. 318867+ up ticks,
      O2O,
      David Icke’s comments must have substance shown by the facebook & Utube reaction.

  35. SIR — The lockdown appears to have created a tribe of (mainly older) Dad’s Army air raid wardens. Yesterday I witnessed an elderly man shouting at a courier for not turning his van engine off while he checked an address. The day before, I saw a lady going around our local pond aggressively lecturing people on feeding ducks. Is this phenomenon unique to my area?

    Stephen Knight
    Barnet, Hertfordshire

    Have you ever stopped to think, Stevie (no, I suspect you are not fully equipped), why members of a senior generation act in such a manner? Well let me enlighten you.

    It is because they had far more intelligent parents and teachers than you did. They were taught good manners, common sense, respect for the law, courtesy and decency.

    Anyone quitting their motor vehicle with the engine still running is guilty of a road traffic offence, but you would be too clueless to know that, wouldn’t you?

    Also, feeding ducks (with, presumably, bread) is inappropriate and injurious to their health. They thrive much better on natural foodstuffs which they forage without artificial help from humans.

    Unfortunately the majority of members of your entitled generation are lacking in discipline and social graces. Those whom you decry were built of far sterner stuff than you’ll ever experience.

    2. And that there is why we’ve become ageist as a society.

      Look Sunshine, my age group is better than your age group because we all left school at 15 and went to work where we used the extreme intelligence that gained us 4 ‘O’ levels and we got clipped around the ear by our parents and beat coppers if we were rude whereas your generation are entitled snowflake freaks without intelligence.

      At no point does the post say the guy left his vehicle. My interpretation of checking an address in daylight is looking at a form in the van or looking out of the window. Yes the van was stationary perhaps for a short time. You also guessed bread. If the pond in question is the one at the top of Barnet high st then many people feed the ducks there bits of hob nobs lol. Bread? Barnet’s a bit posher than that 🙂

  37. Αναστήθηκε!

    “In Greece the discussion about “essential businesses” appears to have gone in a different direction than in the United States. While Americans are bickering over when to reopen malls, restaurants and casinos, Greece has managed to get its “most essential” businesses up – so to speak – and running. By which we of course mean brothels.

    Brothels in Greece – where a global pandemic can’t possibly stop the local men from getting their dose of sex-for-sale – are set to re-open soon, however with a set of new laughably absurd protection measures, on top of the precautions one would already expect when visiting a brothel, according to The Newspaper.

    Customers at brothels will be required to wear plastic masks and gloves while having sex, according to the Greek press. And in addition to the robust security already needed in a brothel, the additions of thermometers, disposable sheets and “frequent periodic disinfection” of the business will all be a part of post-coronavirus brothel life (it wasn’t immediately clear how s temperatures of both hookers and clients would be taken).”

    Good to see one Government taking a Hard nose look at getting things back to normal…..

    1. Are the masks and gloves extra, or confined to the dominatrix dungeons?
      Will there be a variety of thermometers for every orifice?
      A widow in every bedroom unless randy Greeks keep to the 2 metre rule?

    2. When I was cruising the world long ago it was said the local port brothels would not allow Greeks in because of their habit of preferring anal sex and this invariably led to the girls downing tools, so to speak!

    3. Goodmorning to you,

      Just me being curious , where and how do they start .. I mean is Durex the last thing they have to put on , before the gloves or after ?

          1. It seems the government may have adopted a wait and see policy before acting – it’s a sort of Johnny Come lately approach….

  38. Mad Cow Disease Is Still About

    Two cows in a field. One says to the other, “What do you make of this mad cow disease?”

    The other says “Doesn’t affect me, mate.”

    “Oh, yeah? Why’s that?”

    “I’m a helicopter!”

  39. Morning everyone. Considering the world is going to hell in a handcart there is nothing much in the news. Just been down to Morrisons. No queues there or at Farm Foods. Roads fairly busy. By the looks of the vans some of them were going to work. Had a conversation with a woman in the supermarket and we agreed that it was all the fault of the Government for following that moron Ferguson’s advice and that he should be strung up from the nearest tree!

    1. I got into Tesco without queueing. The woman on the checkout agreed that she couldn’t wait for things to get back to normal.

  40. Can I suggest something not very palatable.

    Has the Covid 19 desecrated the care sector so badly because most of the carers are members of the BAME sector , and like wise Doctors and staff infecting each other in NHS hospitals?

    1. The NHS has desecrated the care sector by unloading non emergency cases into care homes which are unsuitable thanks to mass cross infection.

      So the NHS has caused thousands of deaths thanks to stupidity.

      1. Infection control is taken very seriously in care homes. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The NHS can’t discharge patients until they have somewhere to go, and care homes are not taking much from the NHS at the moment due to CV. We’re running at 3 beds down. The only residents we’ve taken since CV started have been old people from their own homes that can self-fund. Most care home outbreaks are down to the staff, mainly low paid, they work whether they feel ill or not because SSP is 15 quid a day and just doesn’t cut it when it comes to paying the costs of living. They don’t report illness to managers unless they literally can’t walk or it’s blooming obvious. Many people with CV are also asymptomatic.
        We’re in our 33rd year of owning a care home. What experience of the sector do you have?

          2. Because if you research you will find many people have been discharged into care homes, and care homes do not have the ability to control infections.

          3. Of course many people have been discharged into care homes. There are always greedy companies that don’t care for replaceable staff and residents. Yet there are more empty care beds in the country now than there have been for years because the employers that do care about their staff and residents are being very selective while they can afford to be so. Thankfully most homes are not part of big chains.
            Care homes can and do control infections. As I said infection control is taken very seriously. Profit margins are very lame, you don’t want rampant infection wiping out half of your residents. That’s closure, goodnight and thanks for all the fish.
            Care is a skilled job these days even if pay rates fail to reflect that.
            My family have owned a care home for 33 years. I have worked there on and off in a variety of roles during that time. I’ve even lived there. My wife works in a home and has done for just under 20 years. We are active in talking with other care home owners in the area and members of things like the social care association. We keep very up to date on the latest happenings.
            And your experience is you read something on the internet from God alone knows who. Of course you must be right and I’m wrong. How silly of me.
            What do you do for a living?

          4. Of course you’re wrong.

            There is currently a scandal about a huge number of deaths in care homes thanks to cross infection from patients discharged by the NHS.

          7. Cant read it c&p it here.

            Sounds like a lot of assumptions already in the bit I can read. Untested people. Deaths in care home attributed to CV without testing. Hmmm.

          9. A Government diktat that NHS hospitals should move hundreds of elderly patients to care homes has been branded “reckless” and blamed for the homes’ soaring coronavirus death rates.

            In two damning policy documents published on 19 March and 2 April, officials told NHS hospitals to transfer any patients who no longer required hospital level treatment, and set out a blueprint for care homes to accept patients with Covid-19 or who had not even been tested.

            Analysis by the Telegraph suggests that the rate of coronavirus deaths accelerated more than twice as fast in care homes than in hospitals in the week beginning 7 April – two and a half weeks after the first policy document was published.

            The number of Covid-19 deaths in care homes was estimated by Care England to have reached 7,500 a week ago, the Government is under pressure to start publishing a daily tally of coronavirus-related deaths in care homes.

            Under the government guidance, patients who tested positive for coronavirus were allowed to be sent from hospitals to care homes. The second document states that “Negative tests are not required prior to transfers / admissions into the care home.”

            It added that coronavirus patients could be “safely cared for” as long as care home staff adhered to certain procedures, but that patients who had not been tested and showed no symptoms could be cared for “as normal”.

            A Whitehall official told the Telegraph that the policy to offload hospital patients was designed as a “stiff broom” to free up capacity in hospitals.

            But care providers on Friday accused the Government of “reckless” behaviour which had “significantly” increased the number of coronavirus deaths in care homes.

            Dr Jamie Wilson, founder of Hometouch, which provides care to people in their own homes, said: “I’m astonished at the lack of foresight of these policies. To mandate that care homes should take back Covid-positive patients with such a high risk of cross infection and high mortality rate in vulnerable residents seems unfathomable.”

            A Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said: “Social care is on the frontline of our fight against coronavirus and the safety of staff and residents is our top priority.”

            The spokesperson added that they had updated the rules so that all care home residents discharged from hospital will be tested.

          10. Firstly TY Epi.

            ” set out a blueprint for care homes to accept patients with Covid-19″

            Barrier care. Perfectly feasible.

            “or who had not even been tested”

            Assuming those that haven’t been tested have CV or are CV spreaders.

            “Analysis by the Telegraph suggests that the rate of coronavirus deaths accelerated more than twice as fast in care homes than in hospitals in the week beginning 7 April – two and a half weeks after the first policy document was published.”

            That’s particularly funny as care home residents are still not being tested unless they GO INTO HOSPITAL WITH SYMPTOMS. IF ONE RESIDENT IS FOUND TO HAVE CV THEN ANYONE ELSE ILL AT THAT HOME IS ALSO ASSUMED TO HAVE CV NO MATTER WHAT THEIR SYMPTOMS.

            “It added that coronavirus patients could be “safely cared for” as long as care home staff adhered to certain procedures, but that patients who had not been tested and showed no symptoms could be cared for “as normal”. ”

            At the moment that means new residents are isolated for a while because of infection control policies.

            “The number of Covid-19 deaths in care homes was estimated by Care England to have reached 7,500 a week ago, the Government is under pressure to start publishing a daily tally of coronavirus-related deaths in care homes.”

            I’m not sure PP understands the word estimated. Care home residents are not being tested.

            “But care providers on Friday accused the Government of “reckless” behaviour which had “significantly” increased the number of coronavirus deaths in care homes.”

            If that was the case the care home managers have done something stupid at this time. They have put possibly ill people with a potentially lethal virus in communal areas. Does this need spelling out?

            “Dr Jamie Wilson, founder of Hometouch, which provides care to people in their own homes, said: “I’m astonished at the lack of foresight of these policies. To mandate that care homes should take back Covid-positive patients with such a high risk of cross infection and high mortality rate in vulnerable residents seems unfathomable.” ”

            Infection spread can be cut by barrier techniques and isolation and turning off A/C systems not that many care homes tend to have A/C.
            Even in the height of summer care home residents tend to complain about the cold. All laundry is sluiced and sanitised. We have special chemicals for this autofed into the laundry machines.

            It’s all assumptions and estimations and the possibilities of homes not being run well. Not really hard evidence of what PP was saying.

          11. Any evidence of this cross infection? Of course it would have to exclude the staff bringing CV into the home.

            We know what caused ours, it was a member of the management!

          12. Look, I’m busy. I have no time to spoon feed you so go and do your own research.

          13. So no you don’t have real evidence it’s something you read on conspiracyidiots.com?

          14. Go and do your own research if you know how to. It’s all available in seconds without spoon feeding from me.

          16. I’m always busy and I’m probably going to stop replying to your childish posts as you’re just a time waster.

          17. I know you are right – and your reference to greedy companies highlights what I see as part of the problem in the Care Sector. In the 80s most homes were owned and run by retired doctors and nurses. They lived on the place, knew how to run it and did a fine job – and put in loads of unpaid hours. Business saw what they thought was an opportunity to make money and started to buy out small family run homes. Downhill from there.

          18. Aided by local government inspectors who made life so difficult for many of the small care homes that the owners gave up, leaving the field clear for the big boys.

          19. Many of the big chains purpose build homes. The smaller to mid sized homes are still mostly family businesses or small chains that started with 1 and now have 3-10 homes.

        2. That sounds about right.
          Elderly chum got into a care home by the skin of her teeth. The hospital wanted her out and she is self funding.
          Awful as it sounds, thank goodness she had her fall when she did.

    2. We have 1 black carer, he’s from Malawi but has lived in the UK for 35 years. We have no asian carers. Everyone else is white, three of them are polish.

    3. I recently visited a care home in London, and the carers were from all over the world.

    4. I think a lot of carers are Eastern European rather than BAME. Certainly in the homes we used to visit to do talks before the lockdown.

    5. it certainly not as I see the care sector in my part of the world.

      I would suggest that where you have a communal living arrangement with visiting staff rather than resident staff you have the perfect incubation conditions for such a disease. Flu frequently decimates care homes.

      We are hearing very little about the rate of infection in the closed down prison estate – I would expect an outcry when we eventually learn of the numbers of deaths – corvid and others – in the prisons during this lockdown.

      Governent did suggest releasing prisoners who were not considered dangerous or had only short sentences but ran into a difficulty – where do you release them to? Send them back to their families or hostels possibly taking infection with them?

      Another ship sailed by.

    1. Probably written by a unix fan. They’ve never forgiven him for winning. Cue posters with ‘but but but, unix still runs most big server farms etc, and it’s open source…’

      1. Unix is more fun. Microsoft has always had the knack of sucking all the joy out of programming.

  43. 318867+ up ticks,
    How many believe it couldn’t happen with our current set of politico’s ? to my mind there is NO credible political opposition.
    I do strongly believe it has been on the cards from the 24/6/2016 & the 9 month delay made it patently obvious.
    Then again,
    I have no trust in a man who once said Brexiteers must be prepared to make concessions prior to eu trade talks,

    It’s a Trap! Nigel Farage Warns EU Will Use Coronavirus to Prevent Brexit

      1. 318867+ up ticks ,
        Afternoon Jn,
        They have been trying since
        the 24/6/2016 and in trying, found to be very trying by many of the peoples.

  44. Vladimir Putin’s popularity slumps as coronavirus ravages Russia with a record number of infections at the weekend. 4 May 2020.

    The popularity of Russian President Vladimir Putin has taken a blow after the country saw a record number of new coronavirus infections over the weekend.

    While Putin’s approval ratings have remained relatively stable, his trust ratings have been declining, with only 46 per cent of people surveyed in March saying they want to see Putin remain in power after his current term expires in 2024. The survey was done by the independent polling group Levada Centre.

    Vlad will have to watch himself! At this rate he will be down to UK government levels in a couple of years!

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8283821/Vladimir-Putins-popularity-slumps-coronavirus-ravages-Russia.html

        1. “Russian President Vladimir Putin has decided to extend his term of office to 2036. That means the 67-year-old will likely be president for life.

          While Russia has legislative and judicial branches of government, they do not function as a check on Mr. Putin’s power. Under current law, Mr. Putin would have to leave office at the end of his term in 2024. The highest court in that nation quickly authorized a new law to allow him to run for additional terms of office. Only a national vote remains to approve the law.”

          1. It is not yet a done deal Bill and he would be 83 at the end of his term. It seems unlikely that he will go beyond his present mandate.

          3. If it’s like that stuff at Salisbury I have not yet gone teetotal!

    1. They’d say it was due to the lockdown and less pollution in the atmosphere.

    2. Headline – “ Canberra shivers through coldest April day on record” (My bold and underline).

      From the article: “ “The last time we had a maximum temperature [in April] under 10 degrees was 1952,” Ms Kirkup said.”

      FFS are there any Newspapers that actually read what they write anymore?

      1. Well you’ll probably find official records started in the 90’s or something like that.

        1. Ours only go back to 1766 but, using ice cores, the global weather may be identified back some 800,000 years, most of which make a nonsense of the current ‘Climate Emergency’ as propounded by little Miss Thunderbug and her army of Extinction Rebellion.

          How DARE they!

          1. Until quite recently, when the Met Office said ‘since records began’ they meant 1910. Now they claim to have assembled records going back to 1888, which is very convenient because there were some severe winters at the end of the 19th century.

          2. I think records have been kept in England since 1659, though probably not as ‘accurate’ as now.

        2. “We changed the methodology of how we collect the temperature and interpret it last year. This is therefore the coldest/hottest (delete as required), day/week/month/year/decade, since records began.””

      2. ‘Afternoon, hopon, it’s reasonable to assume that Ms Hiccup went to some Common-Purpose like school of ‘woke’ journalism, where you have to be ‘on message’ and to hell with grammar, punctuation, syntax and all those skills that make writing, readable; just get the ‘fake’ news across and feed the plebs with the latest disaster, natural or, better yet, governmental.

  46. For you that think the media is out to get Trump. I saw this article headline in Forbes magazineDonald Trump and the Fed could be about to destroy the US banking system.

    Serious stuff I thought and had a peek at the content. Ah not quite so bad, it describes the negative interest rates that are already in place in some countries and how Trump has tweeted positively about the prospect in the US (well Trump kind of positive – we should do it, it is only those idiots at the federal reserve that won’t) .

    Ah well, we won’t see that on Fox News will we?

    1. That article is written by a bitcoin analyst and promoter.
      If one reads to the end it is clear it becomes a puff-piece for bitcoin.

      1. JN, that headline was so extreme that I had to look just to see what I’d anything was behind it. Shall we say that the article did nothing to reduce my cynicism about the media.

        I used to loom at CNN and Fox in the hope that I could find some balance but now they don’t even cover the same stories.

  47. Lockdown – Life enhancing or wot…….over to you Nottlers

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8282961/DOMINIC-LAWSON-locked-syndrome-tells-happiness-lockdown-UK.html#comments
    Deltapoll survey – 43 per cent said their general mood was the same as before social isolation began, 23 per cent said their mood was better, and 30 per cent said it had got worse.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6361d73b082ffa6d412e950282b3169ceb51dd3f7f1f4da06092de9f4b08c6ab.jpg

    1. Good morning Plum

      I’m missing my tennis and feel incredibly unfit. Although I do jog (slowly) and keep fit I miss the aggro!

      1. I am missing my riding and feel unfit, too, although I do jog (like you, slowly) when I walk my dog. By the time I can ride I shall need a horse that’s up to weight and my breeches won’t fit 🙁

    2. All I can say is that the 23% must have been in one hell of a mess beforehand.

      I am in an almost permanent state of anger and frustration.

        1. 318867+ up ticks,
          Morning Pt,
          I really do believe that
          should have a 100%
          backing.
          In my book the endgame will come down to a, backs to the wall patriots vee others,
          ( foreign / internal).
          No decent nation is going to put up with it’s
          children being raped & abused, murder etc,etc ongoing, even for the “good” name of the party.

    3. I’ve become apathetic and can’t be bothered to do much at all. Reading a lot or chatting here. Sleeping ok. Putting on weight through inactivity.

  48. Warms the cockles etc…..(especially for LotL)

    Coronavirus positive: good news round-up – beer delivery dogs may be lockdown’s best invention 4 May 2020 • 12:33pm

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/05/04/TELEMMGLPICT000230594580_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqEzw5OF8VsBey80ir11mphsccKZB0WRM9nGQbV-S-Emk.jpeg?imwidth=960
    There’s no time for stroking, the neighbours are waiting on 16 cans of very hoppy IPA

    We are all taking our comfort wherever it comes at the moment. A lot of the time it’s on the doorstep.

    With conventional shopping either off-limits or a once-weekly novelty it’s never been a better time to order things you don’t really need on the internet.

    Enter the Six Habors Brewery of Huntingdon New York, who have enlisted golden retrievers Buddy and Barley to help deliver their customers beer.

    The Brewdogs, as they’ve become known, carry out the final stage of the delivery process while owners Mark and Karen Heuwetter maintain a healthy distance from their customers.

    Given the inevitable enthusiasm which the dogs bring to their task, there is one serious danger which must be avoided at all costs, a fizzy can disaster:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/05/04/TELEMMGLPICT000230585240_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqp2ZybuEUAsPqEOEA7eklbH3wzZ6oNntFh0sWVI0-fQ4.jpeg?imwidth=960

    We’d advise anyone taking similar deliveries to give it a while before getting stuck in. Fortunately everybody seems happy to do just that:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2020/05/04/TELEMMGLPICT000230585263_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqZTGkdds8SWJRzcZ4ZecXrYq2Y4EMYdWetKddigfEn-g.jpeg?imwidth=960

    Happy customers pose with happy beer-delivery dogs

    1. Interesting, Michael but last August I invest £109 for a beer machine and 3 x 2 litre kegs. I can now order 8 kegs at a time, in order to have nice cold Affligem and/or Newcastle Brown on tap (Other beers are available).

      https://www.beerwulf.com/en-gb

      1. 2 litre kegs? That’s only 3.5 pints, it hardly seems worth it. Similar machines and kegs are available here in France but the beer works out more expensive per litre than buying the same thing in cans! And of course the beer is bland and characterless.

        1. Yo, Harry. Just ordered 5.5 pints draught ‘bright’ Hog’s Back TEA, and twelve bottles of same. Plus a hamper of meat from a local butcher. The brewery does free local delivery over £40, and is also selling local bread and various wines. More power to their elbow, I say…

          3. I’ve had milk delivered three times a week since I had the legs trimmed. Now, it’s nice to have a ‘beerman’ as well as a milkman…

          4. Our milkman dropped the Saturday delivery years ago – but still comes Tuesday and Thursday. Usually in the small hours.

  49. BTL@DTletters

    Tim Potten
    4 May 2020 6:55AM

    Yesterday we had Dr Hindsight and Professor Rear-view Mirror saying they knew all along that the Nightingale hospitals would be unnecessary (but couldn’t be bothered to say anything at the time).

    Today we have Dr “I used to work for Tony and Gordon ” setting up a ” rival group” to SAGE, presumably because this will give the media even more opportunities to confuse the public/criticise the Government.

    The new group will presumably be called TARRAGON (Tony’s Arrogant Remain Ranters And Gordon’s Old Nobodies).

    Still better than DILL (David Icke’s Lizard Loathers).

    1. Have you seen the piece on Guido about the make-up of the anti-Sage group? Sadly I haven’t quite worked out how to post things here but the article makes interesting reading! But not unexpected!

      1. A 50 member committee/advisory group.

        That’ll be one Hell of a camel that gets designed.

        1. More of a dodo I fear! Mustn’t let the needs of the plebs get in the way of the trough! It makes me spit! (Just like a camel..)

        2. Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote…

          “The fact is that camels are far more intelligent
          than dolphins. They are so much brighter that they soon realised that
          the most prudent thing any intelligent animal can do, if it would prefer
          its descendants not to spend a lot of time on a slab with electrodes
          clamped to their brains or sticking mines on the bottom of ships or
          being patronized rigid by zoologists, is to make bloody certain humans
          don’t find out about it. So they long ago plumped for a lifestyle that,
          in return for a certain amount of porterage and being prodded with
          sticks, allowed them adequate food and grooming and the chance to spit
          in a human’s eye and get away with it.”

          3. Why?
            The Aussies have more than enough to feed their population, roaming wild.

        1. Thank you Ndovu! I had a suspicion it would be easier than I thought!

  51. Regarding the SAGE committee/advisory Group.

    Ignoring the obviously over-stuffed size of the thing.

    Has anyone seen any dissenting opinions published or have they agreed unanimously regarding the advice given?

        1. It’s predicted there’ll be a second peak anyway but the press will make a meal out of it if and when it happens.

          1. Unless what has been happening in the last few weeks WAS the second peak…

          2. Yes, Bill, but they will never tell us. Mushroom system, keep us in the dark an sh1t on us now and again.

    2. Don’t forget one of his quotes last night –

      “They always said Lincoln — nobody got treated worse than Lincoln. I believe I am treated worse”.

      You are right, no other politician would continually whine about how underappreciated he is.

        1. Lucky for him that those armed militia goons that invaded the Michigan senate are Republican yahoos then.

          The way he is continually antagonizing opponents would make you wonder if he wants to become Saint Donald.

          1. I think he just loves the sound of his own voice and speaks or tweets before engaging brain.

      1. Falling nicely.

        Just heard this afternoon that there are three cases in a care home in our village.

        1. I was speaking to a neighbour who manages a care home – she said the death certificate for a suicide in the home listed Covid at the cause of death. I don’t believe any stats I see any more.

          2. The thought of getting the disease drove him to suicide, therefore…..?!

    2. This “distribution of deaths”; is it like the weird alternative voting that some countries have?

      2. It’s simply showing when the deaths actually occurred that were included in today’s figures.

        Of the 204 deaths reported today, that chart shows that only just over 50 of them occurred yesterday, with over a hundred two days ago and about 20 three days ago. Smaller numbers occurred on various days going right back to 29th March, but they are only now finding their way into the figures.

        These figures are then included in the other chart to adjust the previous daily columns, so showing how the numbers of daily deaths are declining steeply. The chart is continually being updated and refined in this way.

        The charts shown daily in publications like the Mail, purporting to show daily death figures are misleading, because they don’t show the distribution of when people died, but the distribution of the dates when their deaths were reported. This is a totally different thing altogether and the impact of this is that deaths which occurred earlier are weighted towards the right of the chart, giving the impression that the number of daily deaths is falling much slower than it actually is.

        2. Thanks very much, basset. I can, at last, begin to understand – or, at least, to think I begin to understand, all the murk that is shown in the press each day.

    1. That’s interesting when one remembers how insistent the EU were in preventing Britain baling out any British airline.

      1. Or anything else. As well as our having to ask permission from the EU to save steelworks, shipyards, car factories, truck factories, armament factories, aircraft factories, engineering works, agricultural businesses, power stations, chemical works, or provide any form of state aid to anyone. Guess what? The EU were happy to refuse. But happy for state aid to be given to French farmers, French car makers, Polish shipyards, every farmer in EasternEurope, Greek tobacco growers…

        1. That’s quite a list of industries requiring support at some time or other. I wonder why our industries etc. suffered and Germany’s and France’s thrived?

          2. I was there, Anne, as a business consultant specialising in computerised systems that integrated the whole business.

            In the UK I constantly ran into opposition from the Unions and it was difficult to get endorsement from top management, even though they were the ones who initially stumped up for the project.

            I also worked in France, Norway, Holland, Denmark, Abu Dahbi and Singapore – no such antipathy.

          3. Gosh, yes! That’s a good question. I wonder why no one in the UK Government ever asked it in the last 30+ years?

        1. But I have been saying for very many years that The Common Market, the E.E.C and the EU could only work for countries which ignore the rules which don’t suit them.

        3. The Germans are compulsive sticklers to the rules. They even abandoned their plan to put a toll on foreign cars driving through Germany because the EU wouldn’t allow it.

          1. Not strictly true, bb. The LKW-Maut applies to all LGV traffic in Germany, thereby conforming with EU rules (as does the UK’s HGV Levy). German hauliers (and UK ones under our scheme) had a reduction in VED (allowable) to compensate, thereby achieving the desired effect.

          2. I’m referring to a further scheme whereby they wanted to extend the tax to cars. EU said no.

        4. But I have been saying for very many years that The Common Market, the E.E.C and the EU could only work for countries which ignore the rules which don’t suit them.

          2. We have been brought up to be docile, a consequence of having many centuries of relatively mild and peaceful government.

    2. What’s new? France has been bailing out Air France for decades – except they call it ‘development grants’ to get around the EU rules.

  56. We are a strange lot here. We don’t think much of being cribbed, cabined and confined.

    On the other hand many of our compatriots do not want the lock down to end. The furlough scheme is marvellous – no loss of money, less to spend on travel and no need to work. Economic recession Pschaw – they’re better off than they were.

    Those who find it so terrible are those who are running their own businesses, those with spirit, self-respect and those who have even a little bit of ‘get up and go’ and dynamism. In fact, far from being past it the Nottlers’ generation is more alive than many younger people in the amorphous lump of humanity.

    The government’s problem is that they fear they will be more unpopular if they end the lock-down and try and get the nation back to work than if they leave it in place. And I very much fear that whatever we may think of Mr Starmer he is considered far more electable than Mr Corbyn and will probably have the same margin of victory in the next general election as Mr Atlee did in 1945 and he will have to deal with the economic chaos that he will inherit..

    1. And as someone pointed out, for some of those unfortunate enough to have to work in the Metrolops, rail fares probably comprise 20% of their costs. No wonder they don’t want to go back to work.

    2. Perhaps those people enjoying the 80% pay for doing nothing do not realise that, the longer it goes on, they may not have jobs to go back to. And Job Seeker’s Allowance will be a heck of a lot less than they are getting now.

    4. This could be what a strongly automated economy would feel like, although without the free income, you’ll have to find more creative ways of finding dosh.

    5. That 80% furlough pay won’t go on forever. We can’t afford it.

    6. Wait until the 80% of salary bribe is ended – plus public servants not being paid 100% for sitting on their arrises.

      1. I think quite a lot of snivel serpents are actually still working. Friends who still work for DWP are taking UC claims over the phone & getting weekend overtime; another who works for the Forestry Commission is working from home.

    1. What I love about Mark Knopfler is that he has become an affable old codger just as many Nottlers are affable old codgers. He makes no pretence of being young and trendy and he makes music because he loves music and still plays the guitar exceptionally well.

      They did a TV programme on TV last week on The Shadows – but here is an old clip of Hank B. Marvin and Mark playing together.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MfD0nPAqro

        1. Funnily enough I was listening to this yesterday evening. See what I mean about being a codger?

          The opening bit sounds just like the beginning of the Kingston Trio’s Green Back Dollar.

        1. I have the album: Neck and Neck.

          But as usual your version is excellent and both Caroline and I have enjoyed listening to it.

      1. You may be right. I am just the bloke that digs the holes.

        The blooms don’t last long – but it does go on producing new buds.

  61. I’ve just read up about Hydroxychloroquine on Wikipedia.
    The drug was approved for medical use in the USA in 1955 and is considered a safe drug by the WHO.
    It is used for treatment of Rheumatoid arthritis, Lupus ,porphyria cutanea tarda, Q-fever and certain types of malaria..
    Caution is required if it is to prescribed to patients with certain heart conditions or psoriasis.
    Most common side effects are nausea,stomach cramps and diarrhoea.
    Prolonged treatment can cause retinopathy, blood disorders, liver failure, muscle paralysis and much more.
    There are also adverse effects if the patient is receiving treatment currently with other drugs.
    There is therefore a lot known about this drug from many years of experience.
    It is obvious that the doctors have a lot to consider before using this drug for elderly Covid-19 patients with multiple underlying conditions and medication. However the medical experts should know by now what risks could be taken to save the life of a patient by using this drug for a short period of time. If Boris got this drug this treatment should be made public.

    1. Even taking a household remedy is a balancing act.
      Aspirin can equal stomach problems.
      Ibuprofen raised blood pressure.
      Antacids can interfere with vitamin absorption.

      1. Modern rubbish! The old remedies are best!

        Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
        Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
        Adder’s fork, and blind-worm’s sting,
        Lizard’s leg, and howlet’s wing,–
        For a charm of powerful trouble,
        Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.        “

        1. Look …. I TOLD you that I cleared out the medicine cabinet!
          Well, apart from the toe of frog which still appeared reasonably fresh.

        2. Did you get that from the Wuhan Lab and translate it from the Mandarin Minty?

      2. Brandy Makes you Randy
        Rum makes you Glum
        Gim makes you Grin
        Wine makes you a Radio 2 Presenter on around noontime

        Yo anne

          2. Gradely! I can’t be bothered to do anything other than sit here chatting.

      3. Aspirin causes me internal bleeding and the Omeprazole i take to control heartburn also has a terrible side effect.

        1. I used to get heartburn when I was pregnant – a nurse friend recommended Bisodol, which seemed to work ok. These days I sometimes get it at night – if it’s really bad I use a Gaviscon tablet, or just some water and turn over.

          2. Does it? I very rarely take one – only when a sip of water doesn’t work. I usually find it does, especially if I turn over.

        3. well diluted and in small amounts yes. Sniff your tap water, you’ll smell it. Well maybe you won’t, not sure how France or Norfolk purify water but in London bleach is used.

    2. It’s a relatively safe drug at maintenance doses, but at maximum doses it requires careful supervision. The maximum dose is recommended for CV but there hasn’t been a legitimate trial that proves effectiveness. In fact most trials show it doesn’t do much but cause heart problems.
      It can also cause mental health issues, and it dampens the immune system.
      I’m not sure Boris was given it, he was offered it by Trump I think but I’m not sure it was given.

    3. I would dearly love to know whether Boris had it. I would have insisted he have it from the moment of diagnosis. Anti malarials Zinc and azithromycin although I think the last in not so important. Interesting that too much zinc can cause loss of taste. Trouble is , it’s cheap and devoid of a chance to make millions from a patented drug.

      1. So, you’re saying my wearing of white socks with sandals and shorts is down to an excess of zinc? Well, that’s a relief, I thought it was down to poor dress sense… ;-))
        Howdy, Epi. Hope all’s as well as it can be with you.

      1. The latter I think. For heavens’ sake we must be the pussiest generation that’s ever walked the earth. There have been far worse plagues in the past!

        2. Let’s face it, no one was expecting the Spanish Inquisition…{:¬))

        3. Unfortunately we don’t have the lower population and rubbish transport links these days.

          3. Same here

            But because I live in the sticks, literally, I don’t expect to.

          4. There are two buses a day in Laure. Well, there were before quarantine started.

          6. Fair comment. Someone posted a graph showing population densities of Paris and various London boroughs earlier today. Here (in the borough council ward) it’s 78 / km². But when I came here 15 years ago, there was a bus service to Guildford twice a week. The bus shelter is 40 metres from my front door. That’s long gone. Until 2018, the Guildford – Alton bus stopped just outside the village. Last year, one of the two buses serving the next village was diverted elsewhere in the interests of efficiency.

            Realistically, one needs to drive, living here. My eyesight crossed the borderline for driving while I was in Horse Spittle. My licence expired (as a diabetic on insulin, it’s short term). So I didn’t bother for a while. Thankfully, Lucentis injections have restored the vision in my good eye to the extent that – uncorrected – it almost meets DVLA requirements, and with specs, exceeds them. I kept the front number plate of the Merc before I scrapped it; it’s now on the garden fence, with a cane stuck in the lawn at 25 metres. My own ‘vision channel’, if you like. I already knew there was a backlog at the Driver’s Medical Unit. But now I see that all ‘paper’ applications have been shelved, so as not to pressurise ‘our NHS’. Clearly, the professor in charge of the Macular unit can’t be troubled by such fripperies while there’s a Covid battle to be won…

          7. CV is ruining lives, causing loss of independence and wrecking the economy.

            Is there a conspiracy?

            Of course not…errr…..

          10. Somehow, I doubt the 16th century would have been sitting there saying “well, thank goodness we’ve got a lower population and a rubbish transport system!” if they knew!

  64. Good afternoon/ evening not too sure which one it is.
    It’s still very cold ( or maybe it’s just me ). Constant talk of the Chinese Virus and lock down
    does make one feel cold and lethargic. Even ClassicFM first thing in the morning rattle on about it.
    It’s endless.

    1. Just had a walk round the garden & it’s a cold wind, even though it’s sunny.

      1. Did the same today, just wandering around the garden but will go for
        a walk tomorrow. Its certainly cold for May. I am still in warm clothes
        and the winter duvet is still on the bed which is very odd for May.

        1. We use the same one all year round – but it’s colder now than it was in April.

  65. My Lady Alice Fitzwilliam is going all droopy. I’m afraid the hosing regime has to be activated…

        1. Alain’s doing fine at my house though. I popped him out in the rain and he loved it!

  67. appy talk
    keep talkin’ appy talk

    Talk about things you’d like to do.
    Billy Boy has a dream
    Your life lit up on his screen
    Get the app and make his dream come true?

    His satellites are floatin’ in the sky
    Lookin’ at every penny that you make
    Talk about a bird orbitting the sky
    Takin’ all the info it can take.
    appy talk
    keep talkin’ appy talk

  68. Does anyone, on here, use Instagram?
    [Is it any good?]

    Ordnance Survey has a quiz on there,
    this evening at 20.30

    2. Hi, Garlands.

      I post photographs of my various handicrafts (art, woodwork, cookery, etc) on Instagram, under my full (real) name, but I don’t use it for anything else.

      1. Hi, Grizzly.

        I was interested in the quiz and
        wondered how difficult it is to use.
        ….You are probably aware of my
        incompetence on laptops etc. :-))

        1. I’m in the same boat as you are, Garlands, when it comes to working out how to use many social media outlets.

          They certainly don’t make it easy for those of us who remember those halcyon* days of the sixties (i.e. before computers).

          [*halcyon: my second favourite word in the English language after meadow.]

          2. The first Company I worked for had almighty computers, in a special
            area, with many comptometer operatives; the sorting procedure was
            fascinating to watch.

            I didn’t understand them then, I still don’t!!
            I wish I knew as little as you!! :-))

    5. I think it is like all other social media sites, i.e. they want your first born child in exchange for allowing you to post cat photos.

  69. Mastermind Final 8pm.
    Hope it’s more exciting than University Challenge final…

    1. That ‘Bronx’ kid could have won on his own. Not very exciting, but still amazing to see such a well read youngster. I know he was weird too.

        1. Now you understand Trump. Family was from the Bronx. That’s how New Yorkers are.

          Old travel guide intro for Americans families visiting NYC – “New York is like any other foreign country”.

          1. Trump is a builder with a builders way of saying things. His father put him to work with the site foremen when he was ayoung lad. people wonder why he says things as they are.

          2. Can’t be. If he was a foreman on a building site and insulted workers like he insults people now, he would have been at the receiving end of a flying brick or three.

    3. I don’t mind the general knowledge rounds but the special subject rounds are a bit boring

      1. The whole format seems to have become dreadfully dumbed down, and John H gets on my nerves any way. I rarely watch it these days.

        1. Humphrys is useless as a quizmaster; he should watch and learn from Paxman on University Challenge. If Paxman is interrupted during his asking of a question by a correct answer he stops there. Humphrys ignores calls of the correct answer and insists on reading out the often overlong and complicated questions in full, thereby wasting precious time on the clock for the contestant.

      1. The foundation of Bliar’s fortune was him selling UK PLC to Soros and Co

        He opened the Floodgates for unwanted UK hating Snackers

        1. Pounds always and forever come home. If the current account runs strongly negative the capital account runs strongly positive although with a little lag.

      1. Many people who spend time being photographed or in a studio have to wear make-up or look washed out.

    1. When does Ramadan end, and wouldn’t they have been safer during daylight hours?

    1. Judging by the over 70s on here, any unhappiness is due to the continued unwarranted house arrest, and suggestions that it could go on for months. Nothing to do with anxiety about a virus.

      2. I saw on FB that some snowflake had posted “supposing during the Blitz people had thought ‘I’ll just show a light'”. One of the comments said, “suppose during the Blitz, people had said, ‘I might die, I’ll just stay at home and hide'”. 🙂

      3. I’ve just poured ourselves a (Warner’s) Rhubarb Gin, and tonic. In preparation.

      4. I’ve just finished off the one I started yesterday. I’ve started, so I’ll finish … 🙂

      2. They’re a bit too high in carbs for me, Mags. Can I be injected with microfish instead?

        The scary thing is, he may well be correct…

        1. We were being urged to double our chip consumption, there is s glut of potatoes in Nova Scotia.

          Is that the same kind of chip?

          1. PEI,

            Holiday destination of the Gods when I was a youngster in Nova Scotia.

            In those days it was referred to as spud Island.

          3. I would have been too young and probably the family budget would not have run to such luxury…

          4. I recall that Belgians were enjoined to eat frites at least twice a week, ‘cos of the glut.

        2. Good evening, Boss.

          Yes, that was a conspiracy theory in the early
          days but I haven’t read any more about it lately.

          1. Weren’t some Swedes injected with a microchip into their hands, so they didn’t need security cards, or money to pay for food and drink at work??
            The WuFlu being released from the Wuhan virology lab was a conspiracy theory until the Five Eyes report was leaked to the Australian Telegraph…

          2. I don’t know, Ims.

            The only experience I have of that type
            of microchip happened some years ago
            in a Home Depot In North Hampton,
            New Hampshire; a very pleasant sales
            assistant noticed our accents and started
            chatting to us, he told us about his tours of
            duty in Iraq. One of the first things a USA
            soldier is given is a microchip so that he/she
            can always be tracked when in a war zone.
            [Whether this is true or not I do not know.]

      3. “Moment Jeremy Corbyn’s conspiracy theorist brother, 73, is fined by police for flouting lockdown after touting Trump’s chloroquine as a Covid ‘cure’”
        He’s not the only one:
        https://mobile.twitter.com/covid19crusher?lang=en

        Covid19Crusher
        @Covid19Crusher
        ·
        7h
        Israel has decided to leave doctors free to treat with (hydroxy)chloroquine, whilst centralized France and the UK removed the right from non-hospital doctors at the start of the pandemic. Israeli practitioners zeroed in quickly on the solution. France and the UK face a disaster.

    4. I am increasingly unhappy at the confinement, but I’m not anxious (except about the possible extension of lockdown, Brexit and our lack of freedom). Had a chat with a fellow Brexiteer I met when collecting my pills today. He is of the opinion that C19 is being used as a tool to delay Brexit. I agreed it was VERY convenient for those who didn’t want us to be free.

  73. Update, abandond car has been driven away

    Just got invoice for oil (kerosene) 481 litres @ £0.175 pence per Litre = £82.18 including Fuel Tax. Last lot cost 37p a litre

    1. Interesting, OLT, where are you to get it that cheap?

      We used UKAYfuels and it cost £226 for 500 litres in February.

      1. Best Beloved has just got a quote and is now ordering 1,000 litres @ £0.20. As she says, the oil companies are desperately emptying their storage tanks in order to refill at the current low prices, in order to charge the normal £0.45 – £0.50/litre in the Winter and make a huge profit.

      2. Norf salop

        Conway is chasing them up today.

        Get as much as you can now, the price will rise soon

        1. We’ve ordered – see my reply to myself – and we are alerting our next-door neighbour with whom we try to co-ordinate deliveries.

          Thank you so much for the info’.

        2. Filled up just before the oil price crash…..Enough for a year, dagnabbit! 1600 litres = £777. Curses

        3. Filled up just before the oil price crash…..Enough for a year, dagnabbit! 1600 litres = £777. Curses

      3. Oil prices have dropped dramatically since then. I saw petrol at 99.9ppl today at a garage that is not renowned for being cheap. I can’t remember the last time I saw petrol under a pound a litre.

    4. Blimey – you need to get a second tank and stock up. We had some last month but it wasn’t that cheap.

    5. We switched the gas when heating oil got too expensive. A few weeks after we did, the price of heating oil plummeted.

      Edit: I should have used ‘tanked’ instead of ‘plummeted’…

      1. The only gas we can use (for the cooker hob) is the Calor cylinders and they last simply ages. We are way out in the sticks, so no mains gas.

        1. We have nains Electricity, delivered by a pole.

          We have Mains Water (the main islolation stop cock is 5 Houses down the road

          47Kg Calor for the gas hob

          Gas fuelled Hot Water and Central Heating

      2. If it turns cold just put on an extra jumper. What happened to the stiff upper lip? :•)

      3. Oil is cheaper but less convenient, gas more expensive but more convenient.

    1. A worldwide approach to finding a vaccine would be a lot more sensible than every country piddling about on its own, duplicating effort and wasting resources. Pity there is not a global organisation that can rise above politics and take the lead.

      From what I heard earlier, the US has refused to take part. Shame that, hubris over the human race.

  76. Good night all.

    2 fried eggs on fried bread for supper. The whites were soft but set, the yolks gloriously golden. No resemblance to shoe leather whatsoever.

    1. Yo Peddy

      A hint to for fried eggs, if you want the top of the yolk just white

      Have a frying pan with a lid
      Get the pan hot,
      soak some Kitchen Paper Towel in cold water,
      break egg into pan
      put wet Kitchen paper in pan
      Put lid on
      The pan will heat the watr in the paper towel,
      This will turn to sream and gently cook the white over the yolk
      Never fails

        1. I don’t use enough oil/butter for that. I just keep the pan moving gently.

        2. Any wannabe chef wanting a job at Le Gavroche with the Roux Brothers would be set a task by them: “Fry me an egg!” The standard of the resulting morsel would determine whether or not the prospect was given employment.

          Years later, Michel Roux demonstrated his preferred way of frying an egg. He deep-fried it in a chip pan.

          1. The cafe on the way to work in Kingston did just that for their fried egg sarnies nearly 50 years ago.

        3. Flipping the egg for the last 15-20 secs of cooking does the same job without the mess

      3. Sounds like a poached egg. OK, I use the lid on top trick, but I don’t add water. It also works well if you are frying bacon in the same pan, as that contains 30% water.

      4. Or you can do as I do and spoon the hot fat over the dome of the yolk.

  77. Breaking shock news from yer France

    French Parliament Upper House (Sénat) has voted against the government’s plants to start easing the confinement

        1. Does it mean we remain in lock down ad infinitum or we’re free to storm la Bastille?

          1. Funny you should say that.

            The debate on BFMTV right now is: “Have we had enough of being treated like children?”

      2. I thought she’d gone. You mean she is still lurking – masquerading as Boris?

  79. New experience for me… Just spoken to my mother, who is somewhat confused, to find she, although lucid, can’t remember who I am. That’s a new experience, for sure.
    She also has no idea where I and her grandsons live, nor their names either.
    Hmph. Time for medication, I think.

    1. I’m sorry to hear that. I assume she’s on the same drug as my cousin to try to slow the progress of the problems My cousin takes Donepezil.

      1. Who knows? An endless trail of medical visitors, none of whom have a phone number or will talk to me about her treatment. Dr is difficult to raise, too.

        1. Effing data protection/patient confidentiality.

          Makes me sick. Chums here – their daughter starved herself to death, but because – half way through, she became 18 – no medical person of any sort would speak to the distraught parents.

          2. I suspect they use as an excuse not to talk to people. They hide behind data protection.

      1. Very good point. It so depends on good observations by doctors and nurses.
        Also good recording on mundane matters like fluid and food intake and output. Unglamorous, but essential.

        1. Difficult to do with care at home. Doesn’t help that she doesn’t eat much, ‘cos she can’t be bothered to fix anything.

          1. I can understand that one. I wouldn’t bother, either, if I was on my own.

          2. I can’t get excited about food ever since I lost the sense of taste. Somehow, different textures of wet cardboard are less appetising, I don’t know why.

          3. That’s a great shame – food is one of life’s pleasures. Can you taste drinks?

          5. A nice lass turned up on Sunday morning & cooked her bacon & egg.
            So, jam tomorrow.

      2. Possibly, but since I don’t know what she is on, difficult to hive an opinion. Spoke to her Dr recently to describe the situation, and he’s a conscientious sort, so hopefully under control.
        🤞🤞

        1. Urine infections can cause dementia-like symptoms, or make them worse.
          Are you her next of kin? And in any case, insist on being kept up to date by whoever is treating her.

          1. Doctor, district nurse & care team åre mobilised. Urinary infection being tested for. Holing for swift Resolution. 🤞

    3. That’s very upsetting. Good luck.

      On a lighter note, it could be worse, it might be the other way around.

      };-O !

    4. I don’t know which is tougher, Paul. Your feelings or inability to do anything – or that she is away with the fairies. Or appears on the surface to be.

      KBO, mate.

  80. I am off. Good day in the garden; fenced in the broad beans. Re-sowed the Contender French beans; strawed the strawbs. Pottered in the greenhouse. The garden centre actually supplied something – six bags of potting compost into which the tomatoes will be planted. But only when it is warmer. It may have been sunny today, but there was a cutting north-easterly wind…

    A demain – great excitement – AGA man coming to obverhaul the, er, AGA – AND plumber to do some repairs on the AGA pipework.

    Have a jolly evening being quarantined.

    1. Plumber: “sorry guv, can’t help until Aga man’s been”

      Aga man ” sorry guv can’t help until plumber’s been.”

      Rinse and repeat…

  81. BREAKING NEWS FROM ROME

    It’s reported that another row has broken out between the anti-Pope, Jorge Bergoglio, and Pope Benedict XVI. Apparently, Bergoglio was meeting with Scottish priests when he described “whiskey” as “the real holy water.”

    No wonder Benedict is angry. Clearly, when in the company of Scotsmen – be they priests or no – anybody who would spell whisky with an ‘e’ must be of a heretical disposition and to confuse Scotch whisky with any other suggests Bergoglio may be an agent of the Anti-Christ.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/94af94ba140701c8474f7e089f361c57c094e40d1c46e03836f90f5493be751a.png

  82. Hmmm………..

    Ross Clark
    Herd immunity may only need 10-20 per cent of people to be infected
    4 May 2020, 5:07pm

    Since mid-March there has been an assumption that herd immunity against Covid-19 would not be achieved until around 60 per cent of the population has been infected. It is a figure which gave rise to the now-famous paper by Professor Neil Ferguson of Imperial College, which claimed that a herd immunity policy (which the government denies ever following) would result in the deaths of 250,000 people in Britain. That figure has been challenged by scientists who have questioned some of the assumptions behind it – for example, it assumed a mortality rate of 0.9 per cent which Imperial College itself has since revised downwards to 0.66 per cent, and some believe is lower still.

    But today comes another challenge. A team led by Gabriela Gomes of the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine argues that it is wrong to assume that herd immunity will only be achieved when 60 per cent of people have been infected. It is more likely, they argue, that the true figure lies between 10 and 20 per cent. The 60 per cent figure, they say, is based on the idea that we are all equally likely to contract the virus. In reality, there is a wide variation in an individual’s susceptibility to becoming infected. People who are frail or who have greater exposure to the virus – perhaps because they are working in an intensive care unit – are in practice far more likely to contract the disease. As the epidemic progresses the pool of easily-infected individuals dries up and the virus has to search out new victims who are less-easily infected.

    Modelling by Gomes’ team aims to calculate the ‘coefficient of variation’, which quantifies the variability in individuals’ susceptibility to the virus – with zero denoting no variability at all (ie we are equally likely to be infected). If this coefficient really were zero, say the scientists, then herd immunity would only be achieved when over 60 percent of the population has been infected. If the coefficient were four, on the other hand, it would be achieved when 10 per cent of us were infected. The team then looked at real-life data to try to deduce what the coefficient of variation really is and concluded that it is in the range of just under two to just over three. That would mean herd immunity could be achieved when between 10 and 20 per cent of us have been infected.

    The usual health warnings apply. Gomes’ work is theoretical modelling and, in common with a lot of material on Covid-19 that is being pre-published at the moment (including Ferguson’s paper of 16 March), it has not been peer-reviewed. But it is interesting that it gives an estimate for herd immunity of between 10 and 20 per cent, because that echoes real-life experience. The closest we have to a controlled experiment on the spread of Covid-19 was the cruise ship Diamond Princess, where the disease was able to spread uncontrolled in January, and almost all were later tested for the disease. Out of the 3,711 passengers and crew, 712 – or 19 per cent – were infected.

    If herd immunity really is achieved at between 10 to 20 per cent it could mean that many parts of the world are approaching it – or are there already. A study of 1,000 residents in the North West German town of Gangelt in early April suggested that 14 per cent had already been infected (many without even knowing it). A study of 1,300 New Yorkers in late April suggested that 21 per cent have been infected.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/herd-immunity-may-only-need-a-10-per-cent-infection-rate

    2. But notice how “government does not want the U.K. … – I would prefer “the government will not continue EU … “

      These statements always leave wriggle room!

      “Cabinet Office minister says Government does not want the UK to continue with its ‘European Union-lite membership’ beyond December 2020”.

  84. Very last post. I have, at last, glanced at today’s Grimes. An article about the clap-worthy “Save Our” NHS contains this gem:

    “The NHS is already facing clinical negligence claims estimated at a cost of £83.4 billion.”

    Clap all you like – but I am not – even with one hand.

    Good night.

    1. Legal fees alone are £4.3bn. Nice work if you can get it…

      1. Yawns. How do people obtain redress against the government funded NHS without bloody lawyers?

        And you expect them to work for nothing??

        Just asking.

    3. I would ensure that any award of damages remained with the NHS and that the money was invested for the victim.

      When the victim dies, the money reverts to the NHS.

      There is something more than slightly wrong with the family of the victim suddenly becoming very rich, just because the medics were doing their best and made a mistake.

      1. Unless, of course, you need the money to provide facilities, help and care at home for the patient who has suffered the negligent treatment – or neglect.

        1. But that’s the whole point, the money can be used for just those things.

          A multi-million award for a victim who dies shortly thereafter produces a huge bonanza for the relatives and takes that money away from the NHS.

          I’m not for a moment suggesting that the victim and the family should not get the most of the award, just that what is left should go back to the State not to the relatives.

  85. Evening, all. What a difference a bit of sun makes! I managed to achieve all the telephone calls I needed to make (spoke to a PERSON, not an automaton!), shopped without having to queue (mirabile dictu!) and got everything on my list. Then I sat out in the garden, listening to the birdsong and watching the clouds (I am a great fan of cloud-watching) in between reading my book. The nimbus got blown westwards to Wales and then the sun came out, dodging the cumulus. I felt so much better, it was unbelievable.

    1. Good evening, Conway.

      I am pleased for you,
      nothing more than you deserve!!

      1. Thank you, G. It’s been a bit tough of late, but today was a bit special – until MOH crept up behind me as I was watching TV, relaxing with a glass of red and made me jump and spill it 🙁

          2. Actually it was my decent cords I was bothered about. Snarled at the OH, “don’t bother me now, I’ve got urgent things to do!” as I frantically mopped up the wine stain and washed it out. I knew it was a mistake to get dressed up to go to the shops and not change back immediately!

          3. Dressed up? I dress down to go to the shops. Scruffier the better.

          4. I felt I needed to get out of my scruffs. I live in them normally (walking the dog, gardening, painting – hardly conducive to looking smart) and I needed a change.

          6. Well, don’t use your bicycle to fetch reinforcements!! :-))

            [I refer you to Citroen’s gin joke, earlier today.]

          8. When you arrive for duty it is understandable, but oldest first stops later faux pas for the pedantry.

          10. I sometimes have two tabs open to read both ways. It gets hard to make the “load more comments” thing work when there are several pages.

      1. Thank you. I’ve looked at clouds from both sides now … 🙂 Actually, as the nimbus were drifting across, I remembered climbing up through the rain, bursting out into brilliant sunshine and looking down on the cumulus below. It was a magical memory. Also, “playing with the clouds” when flying the Spitfire.

        1. I’ve just gone a shade of green, having experienced that in a Lightning

          1. Two years ago I flew (in the back seat) out of Headcorn in Kent along the cliffs of Dover, past Capel-le-Ferne (Battle of Britain Memorial), over Dover Castle and eleven miles from France. Saw the sea fret creeping up over the cliffs – it was an amazing sight. When I was allowed stick time I dodged in and out of the clouds (it was a magnificent June day). Before we came back to land, we looped the loop and did a Victory roll – awesome hardly comes near to describing it. I was so enchanted, the following year I took another back seat flight out of Biggin Hill around the Weald of Kent. No loop (too close to commercial airways) but a couple of Victory rolls to make up for it. This time I had a couple of goes on the stick. If we ever get back to normal I shall spend more of the non-existent children’s inheritance on another go (from Goodwood out over Beachy Head this time). With interest rates almost negative I might as well spend it if I’ve got it. As for for experience/flights/aircraft, when we were being briefed before the Biggin Flight, they asked us if we’d had any experience in light aircraft before. Um, gliders, Auster, Comanche … and Spitfire 🙂

          4. Fabulous – My main reason for joining the CCF at school was to experience flying. Although only in a humble Chipmunk trainer – the RAF pilot gave me a taste of aerobatics over Pegwell Bay and I did actually get to fly the aircraft over Margate:”I have control” for a short while before the pilot returned us to RAF Manston.

          6. Wow!

            Have you read ‘First Light’ by Geoffrey Wellum? He was just 20 when he flew Spitfires and only died a year or two ago aged over 90.

          8. Yes, and I have seen the video, too. I have friends who met Geoff, although I wasn’t fortunate enough to. He was a good bloke.

          10. Thank you. I have put High Flight in the order of service for my funeral.

          11. Moh’s late father used to build them at the RJ Mitchell yard , Woolston duiring the war , he was also moved to other factories when the factory got bombed .

            He had an old wooden wheelbarrow for years .. with an elderly front wheel , a Spitfire wheel .

            We were shocked when he went out and bought a new wheelbarrow because the old wooden one had rotted . Moh didn’t DARE ask where the wheelbarrow ended up . The new one appeared some thirty years ago .

            We were going through some old paper work and photo albums recently , and we found a letter of thanks amongst stuff that belonged to his father . The old Spitfire wheel was donated to the Hall of Aviation in Southampton.

          13. Last time we saw the Hall of Aviation , which was a few years ago , we were shocked to see how delapidated it had become , very short of cash and TLC. That is the trouble with Southampton , they don’t appreciate the old history they have , lots of neglect , even of their shipping office history .

      2. Thank you. Having spent seven years in Essex, I am used to big sky country (here, the horizon is more limited).

    4. It looks like they’re coming this way but it was mostly blue today. In fact I have just returned from my daily exercise to take a look in the bluebell wood.

      Edit: my photo wouldn’t post.

      1. The evacuation had been going for some weeks.
        I’m not keen on blaming our side, but I have heard testimonies from witnesses that the Americans strafed at low level targets like groups of children playing, or a woman on a bicycle. They also said they would bomb any farmhouse that didn’t show a white sheet outside. The SS said they would murder anyone found showing a white sheet.

          1. I will go to see the graves of the children one day, and take a photo – these stories are nowhere to be found except in local memories. It was a group of 5 year olds. The plane came over the hill and mowed them down. They had already been taught to run perpendicular to the flight of a plane because you stood less chance of being killed.

          2. Both my mother & MiL reported being strafed by german aircraft. My mother in a children’s school playground and my MiL on a street near a railway arch in Folkestone. MiL tells how her father threw her to the ground and lay on top of her. She tells me she can point to the bullet holes in the railway arch brickwork.

          3. Strafing of British civilians by the Germans appeared in a wartime film that I have seen. I’m just naive, I hadn’t realised that our side did it too, until I spoke to the survivor.

          5. Yes. I can’t find the link, but you can visit the place in Altötting in Bavaria where the SS shot a group of church men a few days before the Americans arrived. Their crime was to protest at the murder and destruction by the SS in advance of the Americans. Suggesting the war was already lost, you see.
            Altötting is the holiest site in Bavaria, and one of the oldest sacred places in Europe. It was probably a Celtic temple before it was a church.

          6. Simbach-am-Inn (opposite Braunau) & Gangkofen, 2 places where I did locums & mentioned to you before, are close to there.

          7. I’ve seen the names but I’ve never been there. Did you get to Aö?
            What should I go and visit in Simbach or Gangkofen?

            I went to Pfarrkirchen once (also not far from there); it is just a normal little Bavarian town, but in the foyer of the church there is an amazingly beautiful carved stone panel – 16th century iirc. Astonishing detail of houses, figures, even recognisable flower varieties.

    2. An interesting discussion, BB.

      Thank you for posting and those who responded.

      1. A bit sombre, but that’s how I feel about the whole war remembrance anyway. My mother once said “we just wanted to forget it.” I got my first impressions of that time from hearing my parents talking – their truths get lost among slick BBC productions and marketing of books and stamps these days.
        I realised it might have been throwing a lighted match into gunpowder after I posted it.

      1. That is my conclusion too. I have not much time for people who revel in being on the winning side of historical conflicts. It is sometimes necessary, and that’s all there is to it.

    5. Were they ‘rescuing prisoners’ or relocating ‘slave labourers’?

      1. Removing people from Stalin’s advance counts as rescuing, I think, which is also the word used on the website I linked to. The whole situation was so chaotic by 1945, I don’t think large numbers of people were being moved around for any slave labour advantage.

        1. I know it’s only Wiki, but; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuengamme_concentration_camp
          “Evacuations, death marches, and the bombings of Cap
          On March 15, 1945, the transfer of Scandinavian prisoners from other German camps to Neuengamme began, as part of the White Buses program. Neuengamme’s subcamps were emptied later that month on death marches to the reception camps of Bergen-Belsen and Osnabrück, and, on April 8, an air raid on a prisoner train transport led to the Celle massacre. Orders were issued for the evacuation of the main camp on April 19. Between 20 and 26 April, over 9000 prisoners were taken from Neuengamme and loaded on four ships: the passenger liners Deutschland and Cap Arcona, and two large steamers, SS Thielbek and Athen.

          The prisoners were in the ships’ hold for several days with no food or water. Concluding that the ships contained Norway-bound fleeing Nazi officials rather than thousands of prisoners, the Royal Air Force Hawker Typhoons (RAF) bombed the Thielbek, Cap Arcona and Deutschland on May 3. Intelligence that the ships carried concentration camp prisoners did not reach the squadrons in time to halt the attack. Survivors who jumped into the water were strafed by cannon fire from the RAF aircraft or shot by Nazi officials. Thousands of dead washed ashore just as the British Army successfully occupied the area on land. The British forced German POWs and civilians to dig mass graves for the dead. Approximately 7,100 prisoners and officials died in the raid; only 450 prisoners survived. 600-700 concentration camp prisoners remained in the main camp under SS orders to destroy all incriminating documentation, dismantle many areas of the camp, and tidy the site. On 2 May 1945, the SS and the last of the prisoners left the Neuengamme concentration camp. The first British soldiers arrived the next day and, seeing a barren and clean site, reported the concentration camp as “empty”.

        2. I don’t see the word ‘rescue’ in association with the ‘concentration camp inmates’.
          “At this time Reikosee took control of the Cap Arcona and directed that the ship be used as a floating prison vessel and to prepare for the transport of concentration camp inmates from the Neuengamme Camp near Hamburg. Over 4,500 inmates were eventually force marched to Neustadt and taken onboard between April 26th and April 28th, 1945.

          On May 3rd, 1945, just days after Hitler committed suicide and 4 days before Germany surrendered the Cap Arcona was attacked by Hawker Typhoon Mark 1B fighter-bombers. The Typhoons were from the 83 Group of the 2nd Tactical Air Force and attacked the Cap Arcona as a part of operations against all German shipping in the Baltic. The British attack consisted of the No. 184 Squadron, No. 263 Squadron, No. 197 Squadron, and No. 198 Squadron. The attack was grimly successful and caused the ship to burn extensively and later capsize. Those inmates who weren’t killed immediately in the initial attack were gunned down by SS guards onboard, or by the RAF pilots who were under orders to strafe survivors in the water. Tragically the British pilots that attacked the Cap Arcona had no way of knowing that the ship was filled with innocent victims or that days later British units would enter Neustadt itself.

          Amongst all this carnage only 350 of the 4,500 inmates survived the sinking and its aftermath. Nearly 490 of the 600 Germans onboard
          survived.”

          1. I don’t want to get into a hair-splitting argument about blame.
            Clearly I interpreted the word “rescue” which is used in that article, just not the place that you quote, in a much broader way than you do. If the motives were different from a simple removal from the Russian forces, I would have expected the article to comment on it.
            You can read that story as further proof of German inhumanity if you want, that’s up to you.
            I posted it because I only discovered about it today, and I’m shocked that an incident of that size is so little known about.

          2. I get worked up a bit I’m afraid. My mother lost 2 husbands to the Germans in the second World War. One in a Fairey Battle over France just a couple of weeks into the war in Sep 1939 and the 2nd in the Libyan desert in 1942. She also lost her brother in a Spitfire in England 1942 (crashed in fog). The Germans did start the damned war.
            The ‘rescue’ word was used regarding German refugees, “helped rescue 26,000 refugees in three separate runs between the besieged eastern ports and the west. As mentioned above these runs were part of the largest naval evacuation operation in history and consisted of the transport of millions of refugees, soldiers, sick, and injured fleeing from the advance of the Soviets.”
            Sorry about the rant, but I don’t need to “read that story as further proof of German inhumanity”.
            It is shocking that something of this size isn’t well known of. Again, sorry for my rant.

          8. Definitely, I only discovered a few day ago that it was one of these he was flying. My mother always used to say her brother and first husband died in Spitfires, but it was only her brother that did. 6 Battles set off (on reconnaissance ), one turned back quickly after engine failure. The other 5 continued over German territory where 4 more were downed by flak and 109s and the last crash landed back at Écury-sur-Coole.
            https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/225748

          9. They were intended to be a light bomber, but they were hopelessly underpowered (single engine!) and very vulnerable. It was not unknown for none of them to return from a mission and at least one of the leaders of a Battle squadron won the VC (posthumously, of course).

          10. With just the .303 machine gun(s) in the rear, it must have been a horror with German fighters around.

          11. We get family hatred about Germans. Too many died because of them.

            I’ve liked most Germans I’ve got to know, but the instant I say so, I’m shouted down with many examples of German atrocities and stories of relatives who died.

          12. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be about atrocities though. Just starting the damned war. It’s not so much hatred as anger.

          15. I recall a trip to Munich and the manager in charge locally did everything in his power to make me welcome and was keen to talk about the war.

            We discussed atrocites on both sides and he appeared, but who knows, to accept “mea culpa” but also he questioned whether the Western allies could have done more to prevent what happened from the Russian side.

            This was before the wall came down.

          17. My marriage was a more neutral one, I married a Swiss Miss. (didn’t last)

          18. The lack of awareness might be as much to do with atrocity overload as historic cover up, because of too many things to report upon and remember.

            Many people know about Oradour sur Glane.

            Have you ever heard of the Tulle massacre?

    6. If you have not, I recommend you read Anthony Beevor’s “Berlin”.
      It will give you a good idea of what was happening, and why the ships were moving thus.

  87. I cycled to the local shop today for some gin in case I ran out over the lockdown period. As I was putting it in the basket I thought ” If I fall off my bike it will get smashed” so I drank it outside the shop.
    Good job I did because I fell off 7 times on the way home

          6. Hi Jools. I just post each day’s page and try to get on with my miserable life. You and the other Mods do far more than I do. For which I’m grateful.

          8. I don’t do a lot of modding – most people self-censor unless we get the odd troll. I don’t seem to have seen Cori since his outburst last week.

            We’re all grateful to you for keeping this channel going and providing us with an outlet for all our frustrations and friendship as well.

          9. Don’t you wish the weirdos on here would keep their sexual proclivities to themselves?

          10. I couldn’t possibly comment! I haven’t been here long enough! I did lurk about for a while though.

          11. Now that’s not true!

            You’ve been giving people up votes almost from day one of the blog.

            You’re quite possibly one of our most senior residents, and most of the posters should salute as you pass by!

            };-))

          12. (Blushes frantically) “Thank you kind sir! I love the site and all the characters!

          17. You are very welcome.

            I guess there can’t be more than a handful of posters here who have not seen one of your up votes on their record. And I also suspect that your arrival was welcomed by them all.

          18. At a guess……Can’t Be A**ed!!

            I apologise to J if I have mis-interpreted it!!

        1. BT asks: Would a slap work even better?

          lacoste replies: Would you risk it, to find out?

          };-O

  89. Right…….. must be orf – OH has ordered food.

    Can’t be sitting chatting here for ever!

    Nighty night!

  91. OXFORD University students have voted against “ableist, classist and misogynistic” reading lists, claiming that they should not be forced to engage with any “hateful material”.

    Students should not be required to attend any lectures, tutorials or seminars, nor should they have to sit exams, that involve “hate speech” against a particular group, according to a policy adopted by the student union.

    The policy, called “Protection of Transgender, Non-binary, Disabled, Working Class and Women Students from Hatred in University Contexts”, also says that academics should include “trigger warnings” at the top of reading lists to give notice of potentially distressing material.

    The student union called on Oxford to publish guidance to faculties, which asks them to consider whether articles “amount to hate speech”.

    Well, I am normal and I am offended and outraged by all these attacks on my normality by those student twats who should be there to learn and not make ill-advised and offensive judgments about those of us who are not as weird, gormless, clueless and brainless as they are.

    I find their normalist views hateful and I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about their abominable prejudices, for which they should all be locked up.

    1. Give them all fourth class honours degrees and tell them to go forth and multiply.

      Assuming they can.

        1. And some of them could be chucked into the Firth of Forth, from the bridge, to encourage the others.

      3. No classes, no assignments = no grading, but a huge debt anyway.
        Or, move over & make space for someone who wants the learning.

    4. Essex University c. 1968.
      After word got back that a degree from Essex = unemployment, things simmered down.

      1. Um, I have a degree from Essex (two, in fact, I did a Masters as well). I’ve never been unemployed.

    6. Is it significant that ‘transgender’ appears first in their list?

    7. Fair enough, don’t be forced to read and study these reading lists.

      It would be aweful shame if exams demanded a knowledge of these.

    8. Who gets to decide what is “ableist, classist and misogynistic” literature?

    1. So Danish bacon is the clue ..

      Why didn’t we think of something like that .. York ham , Wiltshire bacon , sausages , black pudding !

      1. You should hear Danish D-in-L on the subject. She won’t touch Danish bacon.

        1. Where does she get it from? Danish Bacon (the brand ) died off many years ago. They’ve never even heard of it in Denmark!

          I know the Dansk are pretty big on pumping their pigs full of all kinds of pharmaceutical crap.

  93. Michael Gove and the modern-day book burners. Spiked 4 May 2020.

    Irving is a notorious Holocaust denier and Nazi sympathiser. And for many time-rich tweeters, seeing Irving on the Goves’ bookshelf confirmed their worst fears about our supposedly ‘far-right’ government.

    Guardian columnist Owen Jones decreed that there is no legitimate reason to read Irving’s work: ‘You can’t learn anything from a lying book which rewrites history to suit the Nazis, written by someone imprisoned for Holocaust denial.’

    I was interested to read this opinion by Jones but would like to enquire of him how he knows this about Irving’s book if he’s not read it! On the other hand there’s a copy of Blair’s autobiography so Gove should be hung drawn and quartered.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/04/michael-gove-and-the-modern-day-book-burners/

    1. The real problem with David Irving is that he does the research. He searches archives, he goes through original documents. He comes to his own conclusions. He does not just rehash the books written by others, which were based on books written by others, in a kind of academic merry-go-round where they all adhere to the accepted view.
      If you fool around with the big boys, they punish you. (“Gladiator-at-Law”, Pohl and Kornbluth, 1964)

    2. Behind me I have “Mein Kampf”,”The rise and fall of the Third Reich” by William Shirer and “Der Fuehrer” byKonrad Heiden.

      1. I have to confess I have read neither Irving nor Mein Kampff, not because of their supposed content but because I have never had time. I am implacably opposed to all censorship which is always an accompaniment to other forms of repression.

      2. I thought Shirer’s book was pretty good. I don’t have it now. It was one that had to go when we moved from a house to a flat.

      3. There was a book about Hitler on the reading list when I first went to University. I read it, still have it somewhere, but can’t remember much about it at all. I have read so many other books in the meantime.

      4. I have to confess I have read neither Irving nor Mein Kampff, not because of their supposed content but because I have never had time. I am implacably opposed to all censorship which is always an accompaniment to other forms of repression.

        1. I’d like to know what reasoning Irving has for denial of the Holocaust, I just can’t be arsed to trawl through his book, especially if I have to pay someone for it…

          1. He is a Jew baiter. An anti semite like Corbyn and the Iranian Mullahs and to be honest the Muslims who take their faith seriously and read about the ultimate fate of the Jews.

          2. The best refutation I have ever seen of holocaust denial was a gentleman on TV who said “If there was no Holocaust where are my relatives?”

          3. Years ago, I worked with two Professors who came to the UK on the kindertransport. They said the same.

          4. I couldn’t get into it at all – I thought it was about the Scouts

          5. Interesting nevertheless though with the benefit of hindsight.

    3. Funnily enough I was looking through our bookcases over the weekend and I came across

      The Manifesto of the Communist Party

      by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels

      I had to buy a copy when I went to UEA in 1966 and Caroline had to buy a copy when she went to the University of Bath in 1980.

      What a disgrace that we have allowed such books to continue to sully our shelves!

      (But It occurs to me that any right wing material which was prescribed in the past is now probably proscribed!)

    4. I read Mein Kampf. I am not an admirer of Hitler or the Nazi regime.

      Know thine enemy.

      1. Ghaddafi’s Little Green Book, given to me by the Libyan Embassy in Copenhagen (I assume they had a KPI for giving out the books) was hilarious. Utter drivel. Well worth a read. Mein kampf similarly drivelaceous, but even less readable.

        1. When they reprinted Mein Kampf recently in Germany, the idiots abridged it! They should have left it complete – nobody would have waded though it.

          1. I read an English translation when I was young. I don’t speak a word of German.

            My overbearing thought was wow acid was strong in the early 20th century 🙂

    5. The real problem with David Irving is that he does the research. He searches archives, he goes through original documents. He comes to his own conclusions. He does not just rehash the books written by others, which were based on books written by others, in a kind of academic merry-go-round where they all adhere to the accepted view.
      If you fool around with the big boys, they punish you. (“Gladiator-at-Law”, Pohl and Kornbluth, 1964)

      1. I cannot debate with you Horace since I have never read the book!

    6. Indeed. How are you supposed to face your enemy without reading and listening to what they write and say? Well, unless you are a raving Leftie, obviously.

      1. Good job Monty didn’t take the same view as the drip Jones, or he would have fared badly in the desert against Rommell.

      2. Good job Monty didn’t take the same view as the drip Jones, or he would have fared badly in the desert against Rommell.

        1. Montgomery knew what had been going on in Egypt/Libya – he was originally slated to lead 1st Army in the Torch operation – and he quickly got to know ‘the form’, as he called it.
          Rommel favoured the ‘hook’ in many of his attacks and at Alam Halfa there wasn’t much else available against a solid centre: the sea to the North and 40 miles away to the South, the impassable Depression. Rommel went for the sweeping ‘hook’ around the South and was defeated. At Alamein Montgomery did the opposite: feinted to the South and punched a hole somewhere near the centre. The master of manoeuvre versus the master of the set piece battle. The latter bested the former in Africa and in Normandy.

          1. Monty did have a bit of help from BP, though. They were reading Rommel’s orders.

          2. A book I read recently revealed that Montgomery wasn’t cleared for Ultra during the Alamein battle. The Ultra intelligence he received had been filtered by Alexander’s staff.
            In an earlier book one of Alexander’s staff was credited by the author of having the battle changing idea to change the focus of the attack after Montgomery had regrouped. The latest book explains that it was Ultra evidence that exposed a weak spot in the battered enemy lines and the staff member was briefed to cleverly suggest the change in focus of the new attack. BP, a place where I spent many weeks on training courses, and knew nothing of of its pivotal role in WWII, really was a war winning unit.

      3. Which is why I have downloaded to Kindle and am reading, Douglas Murray’s The Strange Death of Europe.

        I just wish they’d hurry faster to their demise!

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